[QUOTE=kfman5F;1242904]Another intelligent reply from the ass assassin. He is funny in his own mind.
“My slave name is james, but my true name is dezi.” Which is correct? Bawang obviously has little social skill, poor grammar, thinks he knows everything and finds pleasure in putting others down. He does sound like a kid in a playground. If he practiced as much as he posts, he might be good. Better watch out, he might come after you in his helicopter.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=kfman5F;1242919]Not mad. I just find you annoying and rude. But you get off on that. Constructive criticism, whether one agrees or not, is better than insults and inflammatory remarks.
If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you and long have you practiced tai chi and long fist?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242947]i would like to hear an educated answer to this question as well. I have noticed a problem with the applications of shaolin kung fu. there seems to be something missing from them, and the teachers that teach them are also unclear about them. or reinvented them in recent time,without having a clear fighting knowledge.[/QUOTE]
The proper applications to most of the Shaolin stuff was well preserved outside of China. Look to Malaysian and Indonesian Kung Fu. It’s all pickled into the Silat styles too.
Everything I ever learned in Kung Fu made rational sense when I started playing with Kuntao/Silat de Thouars.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242949]so what that is what a kung fu forum is for, asking questions, not everyone is a full time message board writer,like this fool. and there is no reason for him to curse out people for asking a legitimate question, he has followed me around and spammed all of my post, the monitors should do their job and ban him.[/QUOTE]
Yes, he has been known to do that to me too. I either ignore him, or toy with him for my own amusement.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1242965]
When you learn A Shaolin technique, it has a poetic name, it has not just an application but an entire strategy of its employment and specific techniques it changes into. It has its specific method of Shenfa, for generating power and avoiding the opponents attack. It follows the principles of Shaolin which are many. This is the same for every old style in China.[/QUOTE]
This is my experience as well. In actuality, I have found the technique to be secondary to it’s method of deployment.
The success or failure of the technique does not lay in the technique itself, but in all the stuff “unseen” that leads up to it. The technique is just the finish.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1242977]If something seems missing then I don’t think that will be correct. Song shan Shaolin is incredibly dense with technique and theory.
One form is not just a simple collection of moves, but also contains entire strategies of combat.
If you can give me an example of something you learned with application you think is missing something then I can understand your view more clearly.[/QUOTE]
Well, this is only true if the teacher is good. So at Shaolin, I would expect there to be lots of high quality teachers. Although, it seems they are not the face put forth. more like the underlying framework.
Like a bone, it is there, but we cannot see it under the surface because it is covered with skin.
[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;1243063]More important: “how old is his Helicopter?”[/QUOTE]
IF his helicopter is as old as he says it is (?), then his age and experience speaks for itself. His words speak for his character. I was getting annoyed (not mad and he is not my “bro”) at his insults to my style and to him in general. I wish he would fly away with his helicopter.
how can that application be correct? first you move inside of the guys punch,from here he throws a kick? who throws a kick from that range,and you block it by brining your hand down,that is a stretch to begin with, then side kick him in the chest,from this close range,with your arms still holding his leg and arm in this awkward position.
I agree completely.
However, if the attacker forward momentum brought him closer, the sudden drop in height would aid in shoving his knee off to the side to destabilize him.
If you ignore the 2 person demo, and look at the actual move done in solo, you can see the hand work clears not one, but two upper body attacks so the force is negated off to the side. One arm, can now cover two.
Then, when you drop your weight, the left arm presses on their knee and with the help of your dropping body, shoves it to the outside breaking their connection to the ground.
I submit that the side kick, is not actually a kick, but a deep step, right through their now destabilized leg, so you can plow through their center and topple them like a bad game of “Jenga”
[QUOTE=kfman5F;1243068]IF his helicopter is as old as he says it is (?), then his age and experience speaks for itself. His words speak for his character. I was getting annoyed (not mad and he is not my “bro”) at his insults to my style and to him in general. I wish he would fly away with his helicopter.[/QUOTE]
I am still sitting in the park waiting for him…it’s been 2 years or so now…I am starting to think he is not coming…
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1243072]What technique is this close range kick your all talking about?[/QUOTE]
Right arm block punch, left arm block kick, and side kick back.
[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;1243071]I am still sitting in the park waiting for him…it’s been 2 years or so now…I am starting to think he is not coming…[/QUOTE]
I grabbed the helicopter thing from an old post. He probably ran out of gas, his arms got tired of flapping or he got dizzy from doing windmills.
BAWANG means Onion in the Malaysian Language.
and…
A series of Chinese made shampoos endorsed in TV commercials by kung fu movie star Jackie Chan reportedly contain a cancer-causing chemical, according to a Hong Kong-based magazine. Next Magazine said Wednesday that the Bawang Chinese Herbal Essence Shampoo Series, Bawang Hair Darkening Shampoo, and Royal Wind Shampoo produced by B&W International Group contained dioxane.
Putting 2 and 2 together makes for a bald onion.
OK, I’ve had my fun. Will see if Bawang’s helicopter lands.
It’s the xiebu chuaitui from the 18 jibengong video by Shi Decheng.
The application Shi Decheng shows changes the action of the arms completely, making them spread open like a high palm block and low goushou to block a punch and catch a kick, and then sidekick from that close a range directly in front of the opponent. Looking like this;
The problem is that’s a completely different action. The arms aren’t doing that at all. The elbows are kept in tight as in baoshou suoshen with one fist guarding high and one striking low. They never spread open in the actual move.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1243001]‘Bottom of the sea’ is HaiDi, this is another name for the point HuiYin which is at the perineum. So often a technique called ‘HaiDi’ implies attacking the bladder or groin (bladder is the ‘sea’ of the body). Needle means to use the fingers or the points of the toes.[/QUOTE]
Yes. A more practical application of the above action is to shantou or ‘slip’ to the outside of a punch and strike low into the bladder while turning the step into xiebu to then set up the kick from the outside, which of course needs not be so high. It can be to the knee, hip, or ribs.
The problem with the application he showed (besides it being a completely different action) is that no one is going to throw a rear leg round kick while leaving their lead hand punch out for you to catch them both. It’s a classic setup of teacher telling student what to do so they can apply some fantasy app. Not gonna work.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243076]Right arm block punch, left arm block kick, and side kick back.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that YKW,
Every Shaolin technique respects the principle, XianFang HouGong, that is first block then attack.
However it is necessary to know that even when there is nothing the block the blocking action is done anyway. This confuses the enemy and disguises your technique as well as maintaining balance, helping power, it also keeps you guarded in case things do not go the way you thought.
I cannot see the action but it is likely the video is over justifying the hands, showing them actually blocking. Most of the time you would not block anything but move the hands in this way as ‘Huang Shou’ deception. Or alternatively you would block the kick but raise the hand to the face simply to maintain the guard, then kick. It does seem strange to actually block two things then do this.
For example, the classic technique HeiHuTaoXin, Black tiger scoops out heart.
Most people will try to demo this as a block and a punch, but it is far more common to use this as an attack than a reaction. That is the upper hand rushed towards their face in a horizontal strike at eye level. This is not super powerful but it also cannot be ignored and it is very easy to block. When the opponent blocks it their blocking hand is trapped as your arm is a horizontal bar which prevents it from dropping again. Then you fist can come underneath and strike at their heart. They only have one hand and no space to guard, also it is hard to see since the horizontal arm covers their eyes. If they do manage to stop the punch, the upper hand immedietly becomes a chop down onto their head. It is a very difficult combo to block and it is best to evade. Because of the orientation of the hands the attacker is well guarded throughout the combo. If the first hand is not blocked it hits their head back and opens their heart the more so for the lower punch.
So it is best used as an attack, though it seems as though it is a defence. Used in this way it has a very good chance to hit in my experience. The name explanes the technique, black tiger does not mean a black tiger but that there is a tiger hidden in the darkness. It is a name given to ‘no shadow’ techniques. The first hand obscures the view of the second hand. Scoops out heart refers to the feeling when you are hit in the solar plexus. SO the name tells you this is a deceptive technique to strike the heart.
I explain this to illustrate that the guarding hand does not always have to actually be thought of as guarding as appears to be the mistake in the video, though I cannot see it.
Again, this has nothing to do with the teacher’s ability to explain the form application. If the form creator did not create a meaningful form, there isn’t much that any teacher can do.
At 0.37 of the following form, he moved his right hand to his right and then suddenly throw his right palm to his left. Even today, I still cannot find a meaningful application for that. Some people may say it’s a training for the eyes. Others may say it’s a dart throwing.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243087]Again, this has nothing to do with the teacher’s ability to explain the form application. If the form creator did not create a meaningful form, there isn’t much that any teacher can do.
At 0.37 of the following form, he moved his right hand to his right and then suddenly throw his right palm to his left. Even today, I still cannot find a meaningful application for that. Some people may say it’s a training for the eyes. Others may say it’s a dart throwing.
I can’t see the video… Is there a name of the form? If it Shaolin I will know it.
Because Song Shan forms have passed so many generations of good masters, It is unusual to find a bad technique (in the old forms), more common the problem is with my ability to understand.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1243088]I can’t see the video… Is there a name of the form? If it Shaolin I will know it.
Because Song Shan forms have passed so many generations of good masters, It is unusual to find a bad technique (in the old forms), more common the problem is with my ability to understand.[/QUOTE]
The name of this form is “Shao Fu Yeh (little tiger swallow)”. It’s a very common “fancy ending move” for many longfist system forms.
You throw your right hand to your right with your elbow straight, arm parallel to the ground. Your eyes follow it to your right.
You then throw your right palm to your left and on top of your head (like an overhead block). Your then turn your eyes to your left.
It’s like an overhead block but since it’s not a raising upper arm. It’s quite confusing.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243089]The name of this form is “Shao Fu Yeh (little tiger swallow)”. It’s a very common “fancy ending move” for many longfist system forms.
You throw your right hand to your right with your elbow straight, arm parallel to the ground. Your eyes follow it to your right.
You then throw your right palm to your left and on top of your head (like an overhead block). Your then turn your eyes to your left.
It’s like an overhead block but since it’s not a raising upper arm. It’s quite confusing.[/QUOTE]
The ending posture is KuaHu… The technique is a hook hand by the hips. This technique is almost always done side on to the opponent. The upper hand is not blocking anything, rather the focus is on the hand by the hips. It ends by the hips but if it catches something it turns into a hook hand and goes past.
Why does the right hand not go accross the face? I’ll explain. YOu are side on to the opponent, the opponent is to your left and at quite a range. There is no way from this position that they can land a hammer fist on your head. The right hand is raising to the head to prepare itself for whatever comes next and is not actively blocking. If you raise the hand accross your face you have obscured your vision for nothing. When done correctly the right hand moves exactly at the edge of your peripheral vision so it does not obscure. Even where it ends it is in a location that does not obscure peripheral vision. Peripheral vision is the most important defence you have and there is a lot of theory of Yan fa, how to use the eyes.
When guarding if you move the eyes from their focus even for a second you can lose easily. The most important thing is to stay focused on the opponents face (yi kan yan, er kan mei). Moving a hand in front of your eyes massively reduces reaction time, more than any other factor.
The technique kuahu turnes the waist side on to evade the lower attack and catches with the hook, the upper hand preparing. Why not move the right hand to the left ear to guard? This posture appears only at very close range. Actually in long range it is not as good as the hand above the head, it takes effort, obscures vision and when the strike has momentum it does not stop it. The hand above the head can drop down with momentum and can stop many things.
There are other strikes that use the hand sweeping out like this, namely Zanzi shou, but they are square to the opponent, this is side one.
The ending posture is KuaHu… The technique is a hook hand by the hips. [/QUOTE]
I learned this set when I did Mantis as a kid. This kuahu (hukua) technique shows up in every northern style I’ve experienced (Shaolin, Taijiquan, etc.) and has the same interpretation.
Then, when you drop your weight, the left arm presses on their knee and with the help of your dropping body, shoves it to the outside breaking their connection to the ground.
I submit that the side kick, is not actually a kick, but a deep step, right through their now destabilized leg, so you can plow through their center and topple them like a bad game of “Jenga”
that makes a lot more sense,and also sounds similar to two applications i learned from two different shaolin teachers,but not for that specific move.
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