Cirsus of Shaolin or not ?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242962]i would like to hear an educated answer to this question as well. I have noticed a problem with the applications of shaolin kung fu. there seems to be something missing from them, and the teachers that teach them are also unclear about them. or reinvented them in recent time,without having a clear fighting knowledge.[/QUOTE]

There is a problem. But it is not just in Shaolin, it is all over China.

It is because the commercialisation of Wushu. There are now very big schools. They care about competition which is form performance or sanda. Traditional techniques do not fall into either category and so are not focussed on.

In family styles the techniques remain fully. People from the big schools have never met the old masters, but in very small family schools there are several generations under one roof. However people in family styles do not have the beautiful looking basic skills of people trained in Wushu schools, so when people look they choose the teacher from the flashy wushu school, who has excellent basics and sanda, but probably no understanding of the techniques in his form.

It is judging a book by its cover.

If you go to meet an old master, or students of, you will find traditional Wushu. This goes for every style in China. It just happens that Dengfeng has schools with 20,000 students, so of course the effect is magnified. HOwever the Dengfeng countryside is also one of the richest in folk Wushu in China, so it is really not hard to find someone good if you speak a little Chinese.

When you learn A Shaolin technique, it has a poetic name, it has not just an application but an entire strategy of its employment and specific techniques it changes into. It has its specific method of Shenfa, for generating power and avoiding the opponents attack. It follows the principles of Shaolin which are many. This is the same for every old style in China.

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the questions can be replied via two questions:

1. authenticity of the Shaolin kung fu styles that are practiced at the temple;

2. where are the applications of the styles, and if the applications that are done today are authentic. i would like to extend this question to the authenticity of the training methods, if so, the whole body of Shaolin kung fu is covered.

for the 1st question, see the detailed answer in this thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65348
the overall answer is that the kung fu styles that are practiced in the temple are authentic. because of the more clear nature of the question here, i would like to add one important point to the materials of this thread. i’ll post it here.

for the 2nd question, about the applications and training methods, Ren explained the problem with the ‘modern kung fu/wushu schools.’ about the traditional methods of practicing, application, and fighting, the answer is the same as the 1st question: they are all not only extant, but quite popular. i don’t have the time to explain it now, maybe a few hours later.

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so are you saying shaolin has two kinds of schools,both a wushu one and the authentic? cause if so i have had teachers from both,and both can show some applications,theory …both something seems missing or wrong about them.

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So most of people going with wushu the show based one.
And very less people practicing teachings of survivor monks.
Thanks for cares and answers.

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[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242967]so are you saying shaolin has two kinds of schools,both a wushu one and the authentic? cause if so i have had teachers from both,and both can show some applications,theory …both something seems missing or wrong about them.[/QUOTE]

If something seems missing then I don’t think that will be correct. Song shan Shaolin is incredibly dense with technique and theory.

One form is not just a simple collection of moves, but also contains entire strategies of combat.

If you can give me an example of something you learned with application you think is missing something then I can understand your view more clearly.

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[QUOTE=Rover;1242972]So most of people going with wushu the show based one.
And very less people practicing teachings of survivor monks.
Thanks for cares and answers.[/QUOTE]

When you have schools with 20,000 students, of course the quality of Kung Fu passed on is going to degrade somewhat. I’d still say Song Mountain has a higher density of good Kung fu than most other places in China. And Sooo many people practice Shaolin, there is still a lot of good Shaolin compared to most other styles.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1242977]If something seems missing then I don’t think that will be correct. Song shan Shaolin is incredibly dense with technique and theory.

One form is not just a simple collection of moves, but also contains entire strategies of combat.

If you can give me an example of something you learned with application you think is missing something then I can understand your view more clearly.[/QUOTE]

in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don’t have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylNz9qLhM&list=FLGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA

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[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242981]in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don’t have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylNz9qLhM&list=FLGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA[/QUOTE]

I can’t watch youtube here, but I have yet to see a good application video…Quite possibly it is useless, but as I say there is a lot of that in every style of Kung fu. I meant more if you had studied a shaolin form tell me a movement you don’t understand for example…

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if you want to get on youtube for 185rmb for three months try astril,. hard to say my teacher explains applications from the forms, but i leave scratching my head, feeling i still don’t know how to use shaolin in a fight,which leads me to my theory that the applications are reinvented from modern monks without real combat experience

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[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242981]in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don’t have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylNz9qLhM&list=FLGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA[/QUOTE]
Sometime we try to explain the form application. There is a possibility that the original form creator didn’t create the form right.

The move shown in that clip at 33 min also exist in the longfist form Mai Fu Chuan #2. Does that move have any combat value? I have never seen anybody ever used it in sparring. Sometime a combo just looks too good may not have any true combat value. If you slide in and use your “left shoulder” to strike at your opponent’s chest at that moment, you can then set up many good moves after that. But a shoulder strike at that moment may not look good from the performance point of view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4IDZPghHU4 (at 0.12)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3P5wKrW94 (at 0.21)

Another move is the Yang Taiji “needle at the bottom of the sea.” During annual Taiji association meeting in Taiwan, all Taiji instructors tried to give their explanation how to use that move. There was a famous master even said it’s a grab/press on your opponent’s knee joint.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1242990]

The move shown in that clip at 33 min also exist in the longfist form Mai Fu Chuan #2. Does that move have any combat value? I have never seen anybody ever used it in sparring. Sometime a combo just looks too good may not have any true combat value. If you slide in and use your “left shoulder” to strike at your opponent’s chest at that moment, you can then set up many good moves after that. But a shoulder strike at that moment may not look good from the performance point of view.
[/QUOTE]

when you sell a kung fu dvd, you change the application to make sure the buyer can never use it effectively.

the guy reversed the footwork and over complicated the technique. you are supposed to dodge a punch and move away, he make you move into the punch. you are supposed to maintain distance and protect your face, he makes you open your guard and try to double block.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1242990]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4IDZPghHU4 (at 0.12)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3P5wKrW94 (at 0.21)

[/QUOTE]

this is the epitomy of flower fist rubber leg. the guy kick looks like waving a wet towel up and down.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1242990]

Another move is the Yang Taiji “needle at the bottom of the sea.” During annual Taiji association meeting in Taiwan, all Taiji instructors tried to give their explanation how to use that move. There was a famous master even said it’s a grab/press on your opponent’s knee joint.[/QUOTE]

needle stabs. old name is cannon to the bottom of the sea.

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I can’t see any of these moves…And I don’t know Taiji, but the name of the technique is usually a codeword for its use.

‘Bottom of the sea’ is HaiDi, this is another name for the point HuiYin which is at the perineum. So often a technique called ‘HaiDi’ implies attacking the bladder or groin (bladder is the ‘sea’ of the body). Needle means to use the fingers or the points of the toes.

So needle to the bottom fo the sea would mean stabbing into the groin with your fingers or using a stabbing kick into the groin, one which stabs forwards rather than lifts up, or indeed using the hook hand upwards into the groin, perhaps from Huitouwangyue or some other such turning back technique.

Song Shan forms have passed many generations, in the old forms all the techniques have purpose and every move can be used in combination with its surrounding moves well. If the performance is an old form I am certain I could explain the technique combo if I could see it. Does anyone know the name of the form or the name of the techniques in question?

@Wiz, thanks man, I have tried proxies, they never seem to work for very long.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1243001]

Song Shan forms have passed many generations, in the old forms all the techniques have purpose and every move can be used in combination with its surrounding moves well. If the performance is an old form I am certain I could explain the technique combo if I could see it. Does anyone know the name of the form or the name of the techniques in question?
[/QUOTE]

it looks like gazing the moon or body protecting fist

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1243001]Dooes anyone know the name of the form or the name of the techniques in question?[/QUOTE]

It’s also similar to Taiji “white crane flap wings” that you use

  • Right outside upward block at your opponent’s left punch.
  • Left downward block at his right kick.
  • Upward wrist hook to catch his kicking leg.
  • Side kick back at his chest.
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sorry, i was supposed to post something, but i didn’t do it in time.

[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242981]in my opinion the applications seem reinvented for the old historical techniques,but the modern monks don’t have the knowledge of real combat. for example look at 33min on this video, block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ylNz9qLhM&list=FLGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1242990]
The move shown in that clip at 33 min also exist in the longfist form Mai Fu Chuan #2. Does that move have any combat value? I have never seen anybody ever used it in sparring. Sometime a combo just looks too good may not have any true combat value.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=bawang;1242992]when you sell a kung fu dvd, you change the application to make sure the buyer can never use it effectively.

the guy reversed the footwork and over complicated the technique. you are supposed to dodge a punch and move away, he make you move into the punch. you are supposed to maintain distance and protect your face, he makes you open your guard and try to double block.[/QUOTE]
no, the performer does not change that movement, neither it’s illogical. just as seems, your kung fu backgrounds are in styles other than SongShan Shaolin kung fu itself. most the southern and northern kung fu styles prescribe keeping your so-called vital points from the opponent, while SongShan Shaolin strategically acts fiercer and may go directly through the opponents’ guards. these are because of the difference in the combat techniques contents. Shaolin has a vast technical portion in grappling, while most these techniques and their strategies have not been adopted into most the northern and southern styles, so while most other schools look like kicking and punching, real Shaolin fighters are skilled grapplers as well. i’ll describe these in another post.

that specific application at min 33 of that video is quite authentic. it obeys the SongShan Shaolin kicking strategy: “The hands open the gates, the legs destroy them.” which means before kicking a target, one best strategy can be to use your arms and hands to open the opponent’s guard, then destroy the target with your kick. to do this, some people block both the opponent’s body sides with their arms, here the guy uses 7-star arms, with one arm guarding the head and upper body (heart and mind) and the other guarding the lower points (groins), so the guard is somehow good. because of the arms’ actions, the gate becomes quite open for the leg to attack. such short-range kicks are ultimately lethal, while southerners don’t do high-level kicks, and northerners do them from range!

this is just one possible application for this movement. one can mention tens of other applications. anyhow, is there still anything that does not seem logical with this application here?

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1243011]
no, the performer does not change that movement, neither it’s illogical. just as seems, your kung fu backgrounds are in styles other than SongShan Shaolin kung fu itself. [/QUOTE]

I know xiaohongquan FOO

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1243011] is there still anything that does not seem logical with this application here?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1242981] block a punch then a kick from elbow and knee range,then throw a side kick to his chest from that range? makes no logical sense.[/QUOTE]

As wiz cool c had pointed out, the distance is too short to make your kick to be effective. Your opponent’s forward momentum will jam your kick and stop your kick before you get chance to be fully extended.

It’s not hard to try this with your training partner. Ask your opponent to come in with a punch and kick, and see whether you will have enough time to

  • block his punch,
  • block his kick,
  • twist your body, and
  • kick your “back” leg out.
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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1243011]southerners don’t do high-level kicks[/QUOTE]

How do you know that? In my CLF lineage, we have moves that are virtually indistinguishable from that move in the vid. Except in practice, the attacker isn’t far away and static, like in the vid. And the way the attacker is attacking doesn’t make sense. But the general purpose is the same. It’s very difficult to actually apply that under live fire. I’ve never actually seen it done, like in the vid. Moving forward into it like that is highly unrealistic. We also include kicks at all levels in practice, and many kicks from close range. But at such close range it usually changes to a knee, a low front thrust or step in and throw in actual application

39

that specific application at min 33 of that video is quite authentic. it obeys the SongShan Shaolin kicking strategy: “The hands open the gates, the legs destroy them.” which means before kicking a target, one best strategy can be to use your arms and hands to open the opponent’s guard, then destroy the target with your kick. to do this, some people block both the opponent’s body sides with their arms, here the guy uses 7-star arms, with one arm guarding the head and upper body (heart and mind) and the other guarding the lower points (groins), so the guard is somehow good. this double-sided block is also seen in Luohan quan, it’s the famous ‘Luohan Sleeps’ posture, Qi Xing quan and Chang Hu Xin Yi Men quan are also famous for using 7-star arms. because of the arms actions, the gate is quite open for the leg to attack. such short-range kicks are ultimately lethal, while southerners don’t do high-level kicks, and northerners do them from range!

how can that application be correct? first you move inside of the guys punch,from here he throws a kick? who throws a kick from that range,and you block it by brining your hand down,that is a stretch to begin with, then side kick him in the chest,from this close range,with your arms still holding his leg and arm in this awkward position.

40

[QUOTE]that specific application at min 33 of that video is quite authentic. it obeys the SongShan Shaolin kicking strategy: “The hands open the gates, the legs destroy them.” which means before kicking a target, one best strategy can be to use your arms and hands to open the opponent’s guard, then destroy the target with your kick. to do this, some people block both the opponent’s body sides with their arms, here the guy uses 7-star arms, with one arm guarding the head and upper body (heart and mind) and the other guarding the lower points (groins), so the guard is somehow good. this double-sided block is also seen in Luohan quan, it’s the famous ‘Luohan Sleeps’ posture, Qi Xing quan and Chang Hu Xin Yi Men quan are also famous for using 7-star arms. because of the arms actions, the gate is quite open for the leg to attack. such short-range kicks are ultimately lethal, while southerners don’t do high-level kicks, and northerners do them from range

how can that application be correct? first you move inside of the guys punch,from here he throws a kick? who throws a kick from that range,and you block it by brining your hand down,that is a stretch to begin with, then side kick him in the chest,from this close range,with your arms still holding his leg and arm in this awkward position.