[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136400]This is why no one likes dealing you dude. LMAO. you see what you want to see. And ignore the rest. I never claimed what i posted were DEATH MATCHES.[/QUOTE]
…
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136368] many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=RWilson;1136415]I agree with most of your posts, Ray but I must diSagree this time.
It is all about the rules of a competition that you tailor your training to.
San shou allows for stand up striking and throws. This is most of the skills minus bjj ground fighting. An “all round” fighter should do well here too if he trains it all. BJJ people do not like San shou because it does not allow them to just fall on each other and just do bjj the whole match. IMO you need mote stand up skills(wrestling/striking) in San shou. BJJ people do not want to bother and just want to ground fight.
Dave Ross was the San shou king in his day so we should await his oPinion. He had the fastest knockdown in San shou history…accept he was the guy who got knocked down.[/QUOTE]
I respect San Shou completely. I’ve fought in it. And against a Thai Boxer… so I know it attracts non TCMAers.
My point is that its a huge leap from doing a CLF form, and even doing element strikes on a noodle, to fighting San Shou. Ross is a great example.
His fighters aren’t training with the Lama Pi spiked wrists guards you see in his old pictures. They’re not juggling a pitch fork in a form as Ross did… they’re training Judo throws, BJJ/wrestling grappling and Thai Boxing.
…
EXACTLY my point. LOL…
“i’m a martial GOD” gets the same “…”
My point is that its a huge leap from doing a CLF form, and even doing element strikes on a noodle, to fighting San Shou. Ross is a great example.
And Choy Lee Fut will never STOP doing forms either. get over it.
It wouldn’t be an official KFM forum thread without devolving into an inveterate display of black and white thinking.
Frenchie;
I’m assuming you have little or no prior experience but since you’ve narrowed it down and don’t seem particularly attached to one school stylistically speaking; if at all possible try and get some experience in with both schools and give it some time. You will naturally gravitate towards one. I wouldn’t try and rush a decision since if you develop a particular dedication it will consume all your free time. There can also be a lot of cultural addenda (baggage) so it could be a good idea to get a taste for what each has to offer before you start truncating your social life.
Gong, ma, pu, xu, xie, shou, yan, shen fa, bu.
Assuming the school is any good one of the nice things about gong fu is that at its most basic everything is relatively interchangeable. Good fundamentals in one style translate into good fundamentals in another relatively easily. So if you decide to try out some Shuai Jiao after a year or two the transition will be smooth and you’ll have something of an advantage over a rank beginner as far as ji ben gong is concerned.
If they don’t offer any sort of free sparring for whatever reason, after you’ve built some decent work capacity and have a good grasp of a few core basics some supplemental training once a week in boxing or muay thai etc is a good way to add some seasoning.
(edit: sorry, I didn’t see your post about your previous experience.)
WHo am I kidding; all gong fu = wing chun and it sucks and I am the firstest mostest beautifullest person to point this out when I am not too busy winning gold medals wrestling great white sharks.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1136394]These comments were made:
… after someone asked for a comparison and the evidence to support such statements was a form video. 
If someone asked me if I thought they should train MMA or TCMA. And since this is a forum and we can only use words or better yet, video, to prove arguments, I would post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomhzXJ1Xvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI
So if someone calls into question the way the majority of TCMA is being trained people get discouraged and want to quit?
I would say those people aren’t really interested in learning martial arts.
I want my weaknesses highlighted so I can improve them. I want that because I want to be the best martial artist I can be. More so than clinging to any idea or tradition. The tradition of martial arts is to be the best you can be. Also one of self enlightenment, which can’t begin until one is truthful with themself.
Very true.
But the minute one asks for a comparison, then weights and measures are required. And martial arts in general is an issue of comparison which goes back to my major overall point: martial arts are about combat effectiveness. If form plays a role in this is up to each individual’s preference. But results, again, can me measured. TCMA’s results are not good.
Be discouraged. Attack me personally. Continue down the same path… again, that’s for the individual to decide. Its your martial art. You determine if its coal or a diamond… which is ironic, because that’s a matter of pressure. Which you don’t get from form and non resistance training.[/QUOTE]
Ray, you do make some valid points. But I don’t see anywhere in my post where I attacked you personally. In fact, I don’t make personal attacks on these forums at all. That’s not my thing. But if I did so, I would be very clear about it. I said that there are people who insert what amounts to put-downs whenever any type of question, etc., is posted. And yes, that could include some of your comments on CMA, i.e., CMA only fights in Tru2form or whatever that was. I kept it open because there are others who do the same or far worse. And yes, some people can be discouraged if it’s a perspective beginner posting a question about a particular art(s) and all he/she gets is negative feedback.
I do believe it would be boring as hell if everyone always agreed all the time. But put-down-type comments are also boring. Everyone should express their opinions. Sometimes it’s the WAY they’re expressed that makes them constructive or not.
And some of you ass***holes wonder why we never get new members posting on this forum??:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1136427]Ray, you do make some valid points. But I don’t see anywhere in my post where I attacked you personally.[/QUOTE]
Sorry of my post came off as accusing you of such. That was not intended. And I admit, I took it too far with the San Shou.
Much respect for San Da, etc.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136419]
And Choy Lee Fut will never STOP doing forms either. get over it.[/QUOTE]
I’m happy for you and Choy Lee Fut… apparently a match made in heaven.
So they want to do forms, I have to ask ray, why do you care.
I’m happy for you and Choy Lee Fut… apparently a match made in heaven.
Yup, Haterism runs through your veins. LOL…
Umm did I miss the posts where everyone said look at that form its really lovely so that must mean CLF is one of the best TCMA styles ……………I thought most people were looking at the video and saying nice set, oh and CLF is one of the better TCMA styles (before Ray went off on one), and basing this on the fact that CLF is one of those rare arts that actually competes full contact regularly across all its families and in several different countries, I know that’s what I’m basing it on. Most of the so called internal TCMA Ray likes so much (in the west at least) don’t regularly fight in Sanda or san shou, I thought Ray would have been applauding CLF for carrying the fighting banner. (note before arguments start I know a few lineages of tai chi compete in san shou, and some hsingi schools but the vast majority of schools and students in the west don’t compete using these systems). In fact CLF, whilst being one of the smaller TCMA styles (in terms of numbers of students) seems to dominate most of the full contact clips you can find from TCMA on the net, and they seem to also appear much more in proper international events and not just local interclub sparring.
I am wrong. You all are right.
THOSE CLF practitioners in THOSE fighting videos looked competent.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136452]Yup, Haterism runs through your veins. LOL…[/QUOTE]
I just noticed your videos in your sig Sifu Frank: http://www.youtube.com/user/sifufrank?feature=mhee
Very impressive martial arts. If anyone should be upset it’s you. Your dominance of cooperating students in slow motion is as good or better than any I’ve seen.
I’m reformed. I mean it. You will now see a completely different persona from me on this message board. Very cooperative. I didn’t realize the level of skill I was dealing with.
My bad. Many apologies.
Keep me informed. I am full of love and anticipation to see any of your students next fights.
So what’s the problem? those are not the only clips, you can find lots on the net from the 70’s, 80’s 90’s and today from all over the place (austraila, Poland the US the UK etc) that’s the point its not just one club out there competing a lot of the CLF guys do, and do it effectively
Those CLF guys train the same as most CLF guys from what I can gather: forms, pad work, applications and sparring (I grant that the fighting orientated clubs do less forms and more person to person work, at least from what I have seen, but they still do forms)
[QUOTE=Frost;1136478]So what’s the problem? those are not the only clips, you can find lots on the net from the 70’s, 80’s 90’s and today from all over the place (austraila, Poland the US the UK etc) that’s the point its not just one club out there competing a lot of the CLF guys do, and do it effectively
Those CLF guys train the same as most CLF guys from what I can gather: forms, pad work, applications and sparring (I grant that the fighting orientated clubs do less forms and more person to person work, at least from what I have seen, but they still do forms)[/QUOTE]
No problem.
I’m thinking of taking up CLF myself now. I’m kind of digging the big, sweeping, wax on wax off like element strikes… they don’t really leave one too open for too long. Shame no one has really crossed over successfully to MMA with that. Maybe time. Give Sifu Fank’s guys a couple more years.
It seems to me that the trend on this forum anymore is to bash CMA at all expense regardless of what it is and what proof exists that it is used as a combat art. To me this seems pointless but it is what it is.
I really don’t understand why it is Kung Fu or even San Shou is looked down upon and not given dues even when proven that these fighters are fighting not only other Kung Fu practioners but other styles as well. I don’t ever see people bashing Muay Thai for only fighting Muay Thai in competitions??
The thing is, while MMA is a popular sport and a very good testing indicator of a person’s skill level, not everyone is interested in MMA. Some people fit the criteria of San Shou more because the skill focus is much more on striking and wrestling as opposed to groundwork and submissions.
The point is, if we as TCMA practioners do not give credit to the styles that fight and compete with their art, why should anyone else.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1136481]
The point is, if we as TCMA practioners do not give credit to the styles that fight and compete with their art, why should anyone else.[/QUOTE]
You are right about this! Those men should get credit!
On the other hand, I bet my views on training are similar to those men fighting in the ring. Just by the nature of what they’re putting themselves into.
It’s not right for every CLF person here to claim the same and ride that bandwagon. Two people can study math… one can become a bum, the other a billionaire. It’s how you apply it.
A teacher of a combat art shouldn’t have to scurry Youtube for footage. He should have fight footage of his own students. One doesn’t submit someone else’s work for their own portfolio.
I don’t have the opportunity to discuss training with those men in the ring. I’m discussing it with men here, who profess form but have no fighters.
I’m thinking of taking up CLF myself now. I’m kind of digging the big, sweeping, wax on wax off like element strikes… they don’t really leave one too open for too long. Shame no one has really crossed over successfully to MMA with that. Maybe time. Give Sifu Fank’s guys a couple more years.
My guys aren’t interested in SPORTS MODEL martial arts. they are perfectly happy knowing they can defend themselves in a street confrontation.
Yet, the beauty of it is, all YOU see are big moves and naturally think we are so very wide open and having no tighter more compact moves. You probably thinking “they don’t know how to close those doors” and thats what we want too believe.
So first it was because they weren’t fighting and just did forms, when this was proved to be wrong you switched and argued because the format they were fighting in (Sanda) was so restrictive and silly it was like TKD fighting and didn’t count, when you were called on this you again switched tactic and now argue its not MMA so it doesn’t count?
seriously come on Ray you bash TCMA and talk about how great MMA is and boxing , then suddenly say how you much prefer the internal methods for stand up than boxing…..you talk about how great the internal structures you train are for stand up (yet no one is using them in MMA or Sanda and the only person who tried is you…look how that turned out) yet dismiss a style that constantly competes and wins more than its share in Sanda….cant you see the double standards you are using
You dismiss all the talk about deadly street fights coming from the CLF crowd but still go on and on about the master taking on all challengers…again can we say double standards?
So first it was because they weren’t fighting and just did forms, when this was proved to be wrong you switched and argued because the format they were fighting in (Sanda) was so restrictive and silly it was like TKD fighting and didn’t count, when you were called on this you again switched tactic and now argue its not MMA so it doesn’t count?
Nothing will change his mind. I’m not going to worry about what one man has to say. no matter what you present him with, it will never be good enough because he isn’t the one being watched. LOL.
(yet no one is using them in MMA or Sanda and the only person who tried is you…look how that turned out) yet dismiss a style that constantly competes and wins more than its share in Sanda….cant you see the double standards you are using
All he can see is his reflection in the mirror. LMAO and that’s all he cares about. LOL.
For the record…CLF doesn’t claim to be deadly. Not in my lineage. Some of the fights our elders have had in the past may have ended in death somtimes, but we’ve always claimed to be a practical style with practical techniques for practical situations. No other claims.