Choy Lee Fut VS Pak Mei

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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If the issue is ‘fighting’ whatever that means, then as has been said here a gazillion times before: people, not styles, fight. That said, and I’m not a CLF practitioner, CLF is IMHO one of the best styles in all of TCMA. What an individual does with what it has to offer, is down to them..

Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT. China’s revolutions were the chosen the place our elders sharpened their skills. that, and many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death. That was great for them and good for us because at least we get to learn tried and tested techniques that work. Still, like you mentioned, its the individual who makes the style work for him. regardless of any effectiveness CLF has to offer, the style is only as good as the fighter using it.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136368]Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT.[/QUOTE]

Then where are all of it’s fighters?

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CLF is pretty well represented in San Shou events.

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The direction the topic has taken is one of people saying one style is better than another. It raises my curiosity because it’s already been determined that none of these styles are producing competitive level fighters

YOU are the only one talking about “BETTER THAN THIS OR THAT”. The direction it was ACTUALLY going was did the creator of the video speed it up to make him look faster.

Personally, if I’m going strictly on form I prefer Hsing-I and Taiji for mechanics. Ba Gua for position/strategy. The forms are more simple but stick to important fundamentals.

Choy Lee Fut HAS this…ALL of it… plus more

But again, personally, my opinion, forms are a way to string out students and dangle a carrot over their head to keep them paying and fill class time when a teacher hasn’t learned how to train a fighter. And the process gets handed down and repeated to new students.

Yeah yeah yeah…we know you feel this way already. Has anyone changed their opinion on forms because of your personal dislike for them? that would be a check in the NO! box. here’s a secret…ITS CALLED TRADITION as in TRADITIONAL CMA.

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[QUOTE=Ben Gash;1136372]CLF is pretty well represented in San Shou events.[/QUOTE]

TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?

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When were people saying that a style’s (in this case CLF) effectiveness is based on how somebody plays a form? And who said all of CLF is only forms?

These are the very same types of comments that many ‘modern’ MAists accuse TCMAists of always making (which may be true; only it actually goes both ways). It’s beyond played out. It’s as if nobody can ask, discuss or share anything without someone inserting some type of put-down. And no, it’s not a constructive argument.

I remember some time back, hskwarrior advised someone who’d posted a question that if you listen too much to some people’s comments on these forums, you’ll become discouraged from wanting to learn ANYthing. That’s very true.

To the original question, pick the environment/art that you feel best suits you, and the teacher you would feel most comfortable with. Neither CLF nor Pak Mei/Bak Mei is better than the other. There is only what is best (or the best available) for yourself.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136373]
Yeah yeah yeah…we know you feel this way already. Has anyone changed their opinion on forms because of your personal dislike for them? that would be a check in the NO! box. here’s a secret…ITS CALLED TRADITION as in TRADITIONAL CMA.[/QUOTE]

You get very defensive.

I specifically added that my posts were my opinion. Am I not entitled to an opinion?

Here’s a secret: those death matches never happened and there’s nothing traditional about beating on a styrofoam noodle. You use those to relax in a swimming pool.

There are statements being made and I’m simply asking for substance. You said “CLF was created to FIGHT”…you put the emphasis on fight.

TKD wins every TKD tournament. TCMA won the True2Form… if CLF was created to fight, and everyone is training traditionally, wouldn’t you expect to see SOME CLF fighters competing and winning open international tournaments? Perhaps producing some Golden Glove boxers.

Boxing was made to fight. There are thousands and thousands of ranked boxers. Probably millions throughout the ages.

I respect your love for the style. Express your opinions. But don’t talk shiznit.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1136382]TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?[/QUOTE]

Ray,

San Shou, at least out here, is open to anyone that wishes to fight within those rules. The basic rules are pretty much: Full contact kickboxing rules + throws are allowed if done within 3-5 seconds of the clinch. In San Shou I have fought Shooto, Muay Thai, Pancration, Kickboxing, Kung Fu, TKD, Boxing, and Karate guys, as well as a few guys that primarily did Greco Roman. There are now some school here that train people in San Shou itself, but on this coast at least, it has been open to all styles that want in for at least 10 years.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1136382]TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?[/QUOTE]

That wasn’t the question you asked, now was it? You asked where the Choy Li Fut fighters were, I pointed to their participation in legitimate full contact events, you tried to change the argument :rolleyes:

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Here’s a secret: those death matches never happened and there’s nothing traditional about beating on a styrofoam noodle. You use those to relax in a swimming pool.

The styrofoam as you saw it is NOT a CLF invention and can be traced back to the Teacher. Bak Pei Sifu uses that too here in SF. However, I don’t use that. But i understand why they do. And, sure they (DEATH MATCHES) didn’t happen, just because you said so. :rolleyes: LOL

I specifically added that my posts were my opinion. Am I not entitled to an opinion?

Yes, We all know this. unfortunately.

There are statements being made and I’m simply asking for substance. You said “CLF was created to FIGHT”…you put the emphasis on fight.

I’ve Shown you CLF in the ring. Its your own fault you can’t see it. :rolleyes:
whether it was up to YOUR individual liking DOESN’T matter. they were in the ring and FIGHTING. they weren’t in the ring doing TRU2FORM. :rolleyes:

Here is a link of CLF FIGHTS coming up this week in HONG KONG: http://www.u23p.com/datadetail.php?key=12290 DOesn’t look like TRU2FORM to me :rolleyes:

Perhaps producing some Golden Glove boxers.

How did we go from CLF to boxing again? :confused:
But, my sifu has trained BOXERS who used some CLF techniques in the ring, but at the moment i forget his name.

I respect your love for the style. Express your opinions. But don’t talk shiznit

Thanks. I don’t talk ****. half of what i say to you is tongue in cheek cause i want you to lighten up. We’re here to fraternize as Martial Artists, you seem to be here in a competitive nature but these are just words on a forum. relax a bit bro. we all have passion for what we do. good thing is we all don’t do the same thing or it would be really boring around here.

peace :smiley:

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[QUOTE=Jimbo;1136384]When were people saying that a style’s (in this case CLF) effectiveness is based on how somebody plays a form?[/QUOTE]

These comments were made:
[QUOTE=Indrafist;1136313]Good CLF is amongst the best TCMA there is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_DuRzmgGc[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1136359]Its a beautiful form that shows the heart of good CLF.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136368]Bro, Choy Lee Fut was created to FIGHT. China’s revolutions were the chosen the place our elders sharpened their skills. that, and many challenge matches, but these sometimes ended in death. That was great for them and good for us because at least we get to learn tried and tested techniques that work. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1136373]Choy Lee Fut HAS this…ALL of it… plus more
[/QUOTE]

… after someone asked for a comparison and the evidence to support such statements was a form video. :confused:

If someone asked me if I thought they should train MMA or TCMA. And since this is a forum and we can only use words or better yet, video, to prove arguments, I would post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomhzXJ1Xvo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1136384]
I remember some time back, hskwarrior advised someone who’d posted a question that if you listen too much to some people’s comments on these forums, you’ll become discouraged from wanting to learn ANYthing. That’s very true.[/QUOTE]
So if someone calls into question the way the majority of TCMA is being trained people get discouraged and want to quit?

I would say those people aren’t really interested in learning martial arts.

I want my weaknesses highlighted so I can improve them. I want that because I want to be the best martial artist I can be. More so than clinging to any idea or tradition. The tradition of martial arts is to be the best you can be. Also one of self enlightenment, which can’t begin until one is truthful with themself.

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1136384]
To the original question, pick the environment/art that you feel best suits you, and the teacher you would feel most comfortable with. Neither CLF nor Pak Mei/Bak Mei is better than the other. There is only what is best (or the best available) for yourself.[/QUOTE]

Very true.

But the minute one asks for a comparison, then weights and measures are required. And martial arts in general is an issue of comparison which goes back to my major overall point: martial arts are about combat effectiveness. If form plays a role in this is up to each individual’s preference. But results, again, can me measured. TCMA’s results are not good.

Be discouraged. Attack me personally. Continue down the same path… again, that’s for the individual to decide. Its your martial art. You determine if its coal or a diamond… which is ironic, because that’s a matter of pressure. Which you don’t get from form and non resistance training.

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[B]Below is a newspaper article of a Challenge Match with a Russian Boxer vs a Choy Lee Fut master. But i guess that never happened either huh?

HERE IS A VIDEO of the person in the article: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rANnZC3WIQ[/B]

Another story of CLF vs A boxer in the early 1900’s:

“Lau Chung was a well-known Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut practitioner teaching in Hong Kong. During this period, a foreign military officer by the name of Norris offered a cash prize to any Chinese boxer who could defeat him in a match. Defeating many of the local Chinese boxers made Norris boastful and arrogant. Lau Chung took on the challenge and ended the fight by breaking Norris’s ribs with an elbow strike. As the fight was fought under gloved western boxing rules, the elbow strike that Lau Chung had executed was considered an illegal technique. From the hospital Norris ordered Lau Chung’s capture for his offense. As the foreign military leaders would no doubt do him great harm for his actions, Lau Chung decided to leave Hong Kong for Macau. As the incident began to cool down, Lau Chung relocated to Canton. While believing he was safe, Lau Chung was unexpectedly assassinated by a fellow Choy Lay Fut practitioner hired by those associated with Norris in Hong Kong.”

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I stand corrected on San Shou.

As for the WORLD:rolleyes: CLF championships… that posters says more than you can apparently tell. Perhaps the winner will claim being a world champion and sell tons of videos.

Also a bit of a stretch going from a death match to two guys getting into a fight and one getting a broken rib. But I concede someone, sometime in China probably died while fighting.

It’s happened. You won… I admit. Kung Fu is awesome and probably the best way to spend your time and money to develop fighting skill. You all are probably very dangerous individuals and the real international professional fighting world is very lucky that you all sit it out on the sidelines.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1136382]TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?[/QUOTE]

Ray, San shou is a perfectly valid full contact fighting venue, more so than KB since it does allow for throws and such.
CLF people competing in San Shou, where ANYONE can compete, is much like any other fighter competing in a full contact striking format.

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Also a bit of a stretch going from a death match to two guys getting into a fight and one getting a broken rib. But I concede someone, sometime in China probably died while fighting.

This is why no one likes dealing you dude. LMAO. you see what you want to see. And ignore the rest. I never claimed what i posted were DEATH MATCHES…thats your insecurity talking. you said CLF people don’t fight…i showed you even back then we were kicking ass.

you’re hella funny, people post something and instead of saying “oh, cool…” you start thumping your chest. HAHA…

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1136399]Ray, San shou is a perfectly valid full contact fighting venue, more so than KB since it does allow for throws and such.
CLF people competing in San Shou, where ANYONE can compete, is much like any other fighter competing in a full contact striking format.[/QUOTE]

God im a karate guy and i know this LOL seriously ray wth?

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God im a karate guy and i know this LOL seriously ray wth?

He is STUCK in a certain mode and can’t get out of it hahaah. maybe he suffers from some COMPETITIVE & REPETITIVE syndrome? :confused:

I’m not mad at him. haha… its fun to see him raise his head when you mention any type of fighting…

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Last I checked the orignial poster just wanted opinions on which school to attend. :eek:

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Here is some other older Choy Lee Fut fights…

At 2:30 The blond Mexican guy was a boxer and trained under a big name trainer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJVBnV6eGiw&feature=fvsr

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1136382]TKD wins all the TKD tournaments too.

Any successes in events open to a more broad spectrum of fighters?[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of your posts, Ray but I must diSagree this time.

It is all about the rules of a competition that you tailor your training to.

San shou allows for stand up striking and throws. This is most of the skills minus bjj ground fighting. An “all round” fighter should do well here too if he trains it all. BJJ people do not like San shou because it does not allow them to just fall on each other and just do bjj the whole match. IMO you need mote stand up skills(wrestling/striking) in San shou. BJJ people do not want to bother and just want to ground fight.

Dave Ross was the San shou king in his day so we should await his oPinion. He had the fastest knockdown in San shou history…accept he was the guy who got knocked down.