Choices

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
1

I had an interesting conversation with someone the other day and it made me think of a few things in the CMA community. So I came up with this hypothetical situation. If you had to start all over in Kungfu and choose a new school and there was only 2 you could choose from. 1 had a long history traceing back many hundreds of years and a large organization but was far away distance. The second was nearby and the Kungfu there was of a higher or same quality but the history was uncertain and they simply call their style Shaolin. Which one would you choose? Why would you choose the one you did? :confused:

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2

Been there done that. :slight_smile:
Personally I’d (did) choose the larger, more established organization with the more well-documented history and stick with it unless I didn’t like the training or the sifu.
With some arts, you may not find out until the 3 or 4th year that what you were studying wasn’t exactly the real deal. Not that “not having the real deal” is a crime; but it’s important to me. Maybe I’m weird like that. You could go to a Muay Thai/Kickboxing gym to learn how fight, kung fu’s a lot more than that. Then again, if I really liked the sifu at the small school and was in awe of his fighting ability I might be tempted to train there.

Nice question.
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3

What if you were sure that the small school had good Kungfu. If the Kungfu is good and complete then does the history matter that much? Does long lineage nessacarly mean it’s a true Kungfu, after all couldn’t someones lineage be made up?

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[This message was edited by Shaolindynasty on 07-23-01 at 07:49 PM.]

4

You have just defined the system I have trained in for 27 years. It is an American eclectic system based on Shaolin. My instructor trained under Ark Wong in L.A. in the late 50’s and early 60’s, then combined the Shaolin with kajukenbo, judo and boxing. I grew up in a small Central California town. It was the only school for 35 miles and the only Kung Fu school for close to 100 miles. I never competed in tournaments, but some of my friends did. They were considered too hard for the Kung Fu tournaments and too soft for the Katate tournaments. My Sifu was well respected locally and received standing ovations in some tournaments for forms he created spontaneouly as he was performing them. Tradition carries with it history, and earned respectability, but all MA stlyes came from other styles that came from other styles. The proof is in the pudding, not in the pedigree.

Sincerely,

Scott

5

I guess maybe our definition of “good kung fu” might be different. I usually take it to mean a high proficiency in a style I like (admitting my own bias).

If the school with the history and lineage were fake, I think the training wouldn’t measure up to the “good kung fu” at the other school. You said they were both equal in skill though, and I replied that I’d stick with someone who was good at a reputable style before I went with someone who was good at kind of a generic or unknown style. Before I choose a school I try to find more info about them via word of mouth. I get opinions from people I respect, like my old sifu(s), old classmates, and people I know here on line. Sometimes eventhough the school & style are obscure, maybe the teacher’s well known. That’s pretty much what I’ve done recently, preparing for my upcoming move to Baltimore. I should probably know 100% in a year or 2 whether everything I’ve heard is correct. I’m including time to move there and train for a while before coming to a final conclusion; but my first day of class (which might be a month and a half from now) should give me a pretty good rough estimate.

If this question wasn’t so hypothetical, and if actual names, styles, lineages, & schools were involved maybe I could give you better advice. But even then without actually seeing the students & teachers & schools close up, I wouldn’t be able to be 100% accurate advice

6

That’s OK

I don’t need advice this situation isn’t about me I am going to stay right where I am forever(or at least as long as possible). I don’t think I ever gave MY opinon, I think alot of times people go to the school with the long lineage to be safe from frauds but with the recent controversys(or not so recent) over who holds this lineage and who is the official successer of who and the made up lineages from we know who I don’t think lineage is as “safe” as it used to be. I think you should judge the person based on their Kungfu I know I said their skills are equal but I also said that the “historical” school is far away, so that means that if people feel the same way LostDisciple feels then they would travel along distance and not train as often as they could with the “equal” local school just because they may have a chart on the wall that has a bunch of names on it and someday mabye theirs will be to. Sorry but I’d go with the small school with unsure lineage but good Kungfu simply because it would allow me to get the training I would need to advance MYSELF and not a chart of historical figures.

I also like unusual things if it is a really popular style I probally wouldn’t want to learn it. :smiley:

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7

Hey Scott brown are you refering to juai-kung karbo?

8

UnberShaman,

No, It is called Fu Chen Kung Fu. There are schools in Central CA and Wisconsin.

Sincerely,

Scott

9

Thanks for the reply, the history’s sounded similar

10

Shaolin_Dynasty-
My thoughts weren’t meant as a personal attack. I’ve been on both sides of this issue. If you’ve seen my “what style did you study” post, I’ve studied under a guy with a messy lineage and a questionable style- but a great teacher with good skill and a style that I enjoyed. I’ve also driven 2 hours 2 or 3 times a week to study with a school that had a great lineage and a great style.

Given the opportunity to live in either town any longer I would’ve stayed with either of those two schools for the rest of my life and been happy.

Unfortunately my destiny hasn’t been shaped as such. I’m sick of bouncing around and I want a style I can live w/ and train the rest of my life. Now maybe I could’ve stuck with either of those 2 other schools long distance and continued practising the little i knew and saw either sifu once a year. I chose not to, leaving it up to destiny to provide me with a style that was better for me.

Back to what I was saying though, I said I’d ask around. It’s hard to believe that a teacher with good skill and another teacher with god’s gift to lineages would be completely unknown by my previous instructors, the people at KFO, old friends, or even tournament results. If their skill level was so high, chances are they know somebody, competed somewhere, produced a student who did either, or have advertised somewhere. If their lineage was so great, it wouldn’t be hard to track down one of their contemporaries (classmates) via the internet and get a second opinion on the individual (let alone the style). It’s not THAT hard to verify a lineage. Personally, I’m not looking to be famous but having had to give up 2 great schools to persue my destiny, I wanna train in something real good & something I’d at least be able to do a little research about.

The question posed the situation where both schools had instructors of about equal skill level. Obviously you’ve got strong feelings for your sifu: friendship, admiration, etc. I bet you had that strong feeling the moment you walked in the door too… The situation posed in the question seemed to be from someone who was a bit “blah” about both styles. Usually one school or one teacher will make a stronger impression on you. Why waste the money if you’re only training there because it’s convenient? Kung fu is not about convenience, it’s about long hard hours of blood, sweat, tears, heart, pain, practise, training, and SACRIFICE.

I doubt you stuck with your school, going to class everyday joyfully thinking “hey, i could be doing something more famous over there, but this place is just so gosh-darn close!” That’s like going out with your girlfriend because she’s easy: it just don’t last

11

Good point

Actually in the midwest most good teachers are unknown we have a weak Kungfu community. Nobody knows nobody around here. Actually we probally know more about Sifu’s from the west coast than those in our own backyard. Actually maybe I should ask is lineage important in your practice(oh wait that’s the question in the Bodhidarma thread)?

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12

Lineage is only important if it’s a lineage I can verify.
Later this afternoon I hope to find out if I’ve got the job I’ve been doing security processing for since Feb 1 when I got a conditional offer. The job’s in Baltimore and if u haven’t seen my other posts, I’m really hoping I can train with Tai Yim.
Is Tai Yim’s lineage a factor in me wanting to train at his school? Yep, no doubt about it. But if you also notice I’ve done everything I could to gain more information about the style(s) and the teaching method. I also said I’m going to wait a year before I make my 100% final complete decision (I should know at least a form or two by then), but the first time I work out there I should have a pretty good idea of what I’m getting myself into.

Hopin this is where destiny leads me. Geesh that sounds corny. :slight_smile:

13

I agree with Scott.

I have studied acouple different styles, and have Black Belts in a couple. Right now Im working out with a guy who’s an 8th in Ju-Jitsu and 6th in Judo who has excellent lineage and certificates from the Kodakan, but Im more intersested in the teaching ability and what Im actually learning.

Every style, wether its 20 years old or 1000 years old, was designed on someones experienceof whats effective. So just because of its age or lineage is it effective? Has it been changed over the last 100 years (better ot worse?).

But there is always that pride of showing that certificate and the rights to say my stlyes lineage…

14

Well

It seems to me that lineage nowadays is a big selling point and that people are riding other peoples acomplishments for fame and fortune instead of striving to reach high goals themselves. To be short about it lineage is being used as a way to “prove” the style instead of “proving” it through action.

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15

“To be short about it lineage is being used as a way to “prove” the style instead of “proving” it through action.”

Good point, repost

16

Back to the original question…

I really don’t look at any of these factors, and I visit a lot of schools that tell me a lot of stories.

What I look at is the other students. Are these the people that I want to train with? Is it an environment that will be condusive to my training. Do the students seem fanatical. Are there a lot of attractive women? Ooops, no, I’m married, forget I said that. All you need to have a school is students, so that’s all a really look at.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

17

“Are there a lot of attractive women? Ooops, no, I’m married, forget I said that. All you need to have a school is students, so that’s all a really look at.”

No you were right, what do the women look like :smiley:

18

I mean, I can see you guys’ point about lineage not being all it’s cracked up to be.
A good example of what you’re talking about is the hundreds and thousands of guys who’ve trained with Dan Inosanto and put his name at the top of their pamphlet with having little to no experience themselves- trying to live through him.

Lineage is not a sole, deciding factor. In fact, there is no sole deciding factor that should be common to everyone, there’s just factors I put a little more importance in.

The instructor’s skill for instructing is not MY only/main criteria for signing up. I could have the best instructor in the world and still be wasting my time if it wasn’t an art I loved. As far as having fanatical students, if a school has fanatical students, maybe THEY’re happy, but it doesn’t mean I will be.

I have particular style preferences. Call me lazy, call me picky, call me closed-minded, call me whatever. I’m not going to train in an art unless I like it and want to learn the art. I went to high school in Okinawa and had opportunities to train with some of the biggest names & best teachers around in Karate. I didn’t WANT to train in Karate, so I didn’t bother with it. That’s the only reason I look at lineage, to know what style I’m doing and to make sure it’s something I wanna study.

Once I find a decent lineage, or if there are none around; then I worry about instructor’s MA skill and teaching skill. I consider the students’ skills and abilities part of the teacher’s teaching skill.

Now as far as someone just getting into martial arts, it’s up to that person I guess. I still say try to find the best school you can find, in terms of style, lineage, class environment, MA ability, and especially teaching ability. It’s always going to be up to the individual which of those criteria have more weight. I gave you which ones I weigh heavier and my reasons for thinking so. In the end a lot of it comes down to luck.
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