Chisau with other schools

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

In the many years I have been practising wing chun, I have notice that many wing chun practitioners don’t go and chisau with people from other schools and lineages. In the main, people tend to stick with their own group of friends or fellow students that they are familiar with.

Why is that?

Some say that they want to avoid politics, but I don’t truly believe that. In my own experience, there’s always the same pattern or feel when you chisau with your classmates and there’s limitations with this restrictive practice, and you will certainly miss out on different energies given by other schools.

This reluctantance to chisau with others outside of our own group intrigues me, and I’m hoping that maybe some here can shed some light on this subject.

To help me understand others more, perhaps some of you here can give me your own personal reasons for not chisauing beyond your own classmates.

thanks

2

One word: ego. On both sides.

3

I would chisau , spa , fight flea infested monkeys wateva with other schools because id grow from the experience just me 2cents.

4

Hello Matey,

A long time ago I wonder this question myself…and the answer is too much beep politics.

Personally, I meet up with other wing chun lineage practitioner(s) outside training time and also, I occasionally visit other wing chun schools. From my experience, if you are willing to empty your cup and take criticisms then life is much easier sometimes.

There were times when I visited a school I was completely ignored or they will ask me what I did etc. It is funny, I walk into a school and a guy came over started telling me wing chun. Then, I politely told him I am studying wing chun then after his face changed.

What can I say…UNITY in wing chun…impossible.

5

chi sau with other schools

I have chisaoed with people from quite a few different schools and different sifus
including atleast 5 of Ip Man’s well known first generation students.

In order to learn one has to control one’s ego. With awareness and control- one can figure out strengths and weaknesses-your own and their’s- of many different kinds and dimensions.
Finding non egotistical folks from other lines-those are gold mines for development. Occasionally with idiots you have to be careful and be prepared to drop the bomb
or not play in order to remain reasonably civil..
Good chi sao development IMO helps one handle people from other styles mixed or otherwise as well.
Of course opinions will differ- that’s ok.

6

I think the answer is obvious, csk…

What are the rules of chi sao?

Where does the chi sao end and the actual sparring/fighting begin?

What happens when you pull your punch just as it starts to connect with his face when his tan is too low, for example, during chi sao - and he then ignores your courtesy and blasts you?

Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?

But he was taught to only punch your chest in that situation - but you were taught to punch either place?

What are the rules of chi sao?

Says who?

Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?

What if he stops rolling and starts grabbing your arms in a tight grip?

Or his palm strike goes to your face and you were taught just to hit his chest with it?

Who makes the rules?

Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?

…And this is someone you don’t really know :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :smiley:

LOL.

Advice: Make friends with the guy first. Otherwise, forget it.

It won’t be chi sao. It will be something else.

7

I don’t think it’s necessarily ego.

Not unless you want to go really deep and talk about ego leading to fear. I think it’s mostly fear. It’s fear that:

  1. what you’ve been learning is no good,
  2. you’re going to get hit!

The second one is the one that we all overcome when we first start chisaoing in our own schools, and we blithely start to think, 'Oh well, I expect to get hit a few times, it’s all part of the learning process," but as UWC says, there are no rules, so once again you have to go out of your comfort zone.

I’ve chisaoed with complete strangers (and sparred full and semi contact for that matter) on many occasions, so I don’t hold with UWC’s contentions. Sure, I’ve rolled with people who roll in a different style to me; with stronger hits, with no pulling, faster, slower, weaker, no forward energy, too much forward energy, etc, but the simple thing to do is to stop every now and then and compare notes and this stops anyone getting out of control. It has never been a bad experience for me.

Except with that danged Sekabin, he’s always wrestling folk and twatting them for no reason left right and centre…!:smiley: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

8

Ego leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to

that danged Sekabin, he’s always wrestling folk and twatting them for no reason left right and centre…!:smiley: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

You know you love it really :o :smiley:

9

While it hasn’t happened in years, we’ve had Wing Chun practitioners from other schools come down and challenge us. Mind you, usually it’s the individual that decides to come down and “test us out” so to speak, not the entire school. Our Sifu usually puts someone to do Chi Sao with them. Alot of times, it’s a major learning experience, different hands, different mentality, different attitude, different rules. The main thing that my Sifu always emphasized was that no matter what they came at us with, always maintain your composure. So for example, among our classmates, we never hit to the face. However, there are schools where the students are head hunters. I had incident years ago where I Chi Sao with someone from a different school and we were going pretty light, just hitting to the body. The next thing I know, he sped up and threw one punched me to my face, busting my lip. I turned to look at Sifu because I was ready to give one right back to him, but he said NO. It bothered me for a long time, but I after looking back I sort of understand why he said what he said. He was trying to teach me that I had to learn to deal with whatever comes, no matter who it was.

10

oh boy oh boy chi sao with different people is a whole lot of fun. so long as no ones an ******* its a win win situation. get an idea of different approaches learn your weaknesses and strengths and other peoples, come away thinking yeah my chisao is good come away thinking daaayuuuum i got blown out of the water its all good :smiley:

quick question.. why stop at chisao with wing chun dudes, get out there have fun with everyone, sub, box, …

11

Joy sez: In order to learn one has to control one’s ego. With awareness and control- one can figure out strengths and weaknesses-your own and their’s- of many different kinds and dimensions.
Finding non egotistical folks from other lines-those are gold mines for development.

Very true, very true, Joy. But dare I say one can learn much from an egotesticle opponent as well.

But how can one be free from ego if they haven’t tasted humble pie? How can one exerience superior hands if they don’t engage in chisau outside of their zone?

12

Ultimatewingchun sez: I think the answer is obvious, csk…

What are the rules of chi sao?

A: Just like there are no rules in any fight, there should not be any within chisau. However, as a starting point, we must break down chisau as follows and practice within those levels:

Chisau encompasses: dan-chi, dan-chi gor-sau, look-sau and poon-sau, suong chisau (double chisau), gor-sau. As a side note, I do understand that not everybody would agree on my interpretation of chisau, so here I’m only focusing on what is usually considered to be the universal characteristics \ definitions of chisau.

Victor:Where does the chi sao end and the actual sparring/fighting begin?

Mutually agree on what stage of chisau level you are on, and practice within that level. For example, you wouldn’t be using both hands on someone that has only covered up to dan-chi. Or, if you have reached gor-sau stage, establish mutual rules first.

Victor:What happens when you pull your punch just as it starts to connect with his face when his tan is too low, for example, during chi sao - and he then ignores your courtesy and blasts you?

You will find most go-saus (high level opponents) are very well controlled. If a go-sau can hit you at will, then I for one will be willing to get the occasional hit to learn from him. Personally, I would be more worried if a low level practitioner can hit me. If a low level opponent don’t control themselves well, I would close their engine before they would even start, or I would take the extra step of taking their space and therefore disrupt their balance to prevent them from countering. For example, after a pak-dar, instead of leaving my fist 1\2 inch from his face, I would cover his face with my palm and step in to off balance him. Thus, preventing him from his silly counter. I also know that some silly attacks within chisau is very difficult to stop irrespective of your skill level. For example, whilst your opponent is in fook-sau on top of your tan, his hand would bill forward in a curve to slap the side of your head. In this example, step forward and palm his forehead, as you accept his silly ‘touch’ on the side of your head.

Victor:Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?

As above

Victor:But he was taught to only punch your chest in that situation - but you were taught to punch either place?

Take advantage of this, but control your attack accordingly.

Victor:What are the rules of chi sao?

Ultimately, none, but start on a progressive level.

Victor:What if he stops rolling and starts grabbing your arms in a tight grip?

loy lau, hui sung, luut-sau jik cheung. If he can grabb your arms, it proves your sensitivity is such.

Victor:Or his palm strike goes to your face and you were taught just to hit his chest with it?

Again, why has he been able to bypass your defence? Analyse what the reasons were (see above). If this is because of his superior skills, ask him to control his energy more.

Victor: Who makes the rules?

Initially, both of you.

Victor:And this is someone you don’t really know

Great. I don’t want to experience the same old same all the time.

Victor:Advice: Make friends with the guy first. Otherwise, forget it.

It won’t be chi sao. It will be something else.

I love wing chun too much to worry about minor details. My hands of friendship is always opened for wing chun practitioners. If they can hit me, I want to know why. I will accept the little pain to gain the knowledge.

13

Anisole sez: A long time ago I wonder this question myself…and the answer is too much beep politics.

Can you please expand on this?

I personally can’t see how politics can stop someone practising something which they claim they love so much.

14

ur joking right?

well, you should know it sounds like this…we do it like this, we do it like that. Our lineage/sifu learnt the correct wing chun from Yip Man, he was a private student.

you get the picture.

15

Anisole sez: ur joking right?

well, you should know it sounds like this…we do it like this, we do it like that. Our lineage/sifu learnt the correct wing chun from Yip Man, he was a private student.

you get the picture.

No, I’m not joking, although I can be extremely funny at times.

It doesn’t matter who sez what or their seniority. The moment of truth is when you engage hands…Are you being controlled? Are you being hit?

In chisau, it doesn’t mean a thing when you say we do it this way or that way – you will soon know when the punches are getting through.The only criteria is, does it work?

There’s a Chinese wing chun saying – there’s no hiding your skill in chisau

sau chi sau, mo dak jow

16

Good posts CSK.

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Some people don’t want to know the truth. As Norman Vincent Peale said " The trouble with most of us is that we would rather be ruined by praise, than saved by criticism."

To answer your question, I have chi sau’ed with other schools before, and it’s not been a problem UNLESS the politics of the situation cause it to escalated into more of a fight for dominance. If you are simply trying to test your skill and can check your Ego at the door, it can work wonderfully. Sometimes it’s easier said than done. :wink:

18

I don’t think there are enough forums for the free exchange of information. A school or class setting isn’t always ideal for this. Sure there are conferences that you have to pay to come to, but we need more free gatherings to meet and chi-sao and share. With that in mind, we need more people in different countries and regions willing to put on these types of events. Those that believe in respecting the differences among our many lineages and styles in our art. There have been a few and there still is one in Arizona annually, but Wing Chun as a whole needs more.

If anyone knows of more of these kinds of free gatherings internationally, let me know. I’d be glad to help promote these and try to encourage others to start more of them.

19

RedJunkLabel:

Your post has come closest to what I was trying to say in my first post on this thread - which was totally misunderstood by csk…(What else is new?) :slight_smile: :wink: :cool:

Although you’re still referring to only chi sao.

I kept repeating the line: “Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?”

My point was this: Why have chi sao events?

Either one of two things will usually happen…

  1. They will become a sparring (or possibly a fighting) event more often than not when people from various lineages get together - due to egos and whatnot…

OR

  1. They will prove very little because they will only cover chi sao (which is always just a limited expression of what wing chun is supposed to be: fighting).

SO WHY NOT JUST COME TOGETHER FOR SPARRING EVENTS?

So that the cards are already on the table!

Might prevent any misunderstandings - since wingchunner (A) might look upon chi sao as very different than wingchunner (B).

But if it’s understood up front that it’s a sparring get together - and here are the rules, regs, and protocols, etc…then people will know pretty much what to expect.

We actually had an event like this last May in Cleveland - but not enough people showed up - so it was kind of limited…but went well…as far as it goes. Very little ego stuff got in the way.

People understood pretty much in advance that we would be doing this and that, etc.

Tried to arrange another one here in NYC last October, but my work schedule got in the way - and I had to cancel it.

(Not that people couldn’t chi sao if they wanted to in Cleveland - and some people did…but the fact that the main emphasis was the sparring kept things clear…ie.- this is chi sao…and this is sparring).

And the sparring was done with light gloves and protective gear.

20

IMO, chi sao is a cooperative drill used to develop attribuutes such as sensitivity and timing. The key-word being cooperative. Once it becomes competitive, it has moved closer to the sparring realm, at which point you might as well spar with gloves and gear, because you’re not really sparring and you’re certainly not doing chi sao.
Just to muddy the water yet again, cooperative does not necessarily mean passive. :wink: