Chinese MA + Western Sport Fencing

Soon ill start doing Xing Yi Quan and speaking to the dude he said weapons will only be taught later on, since there is enfasis on empty handed fighting.

So i thought of maybe doing Fencing to learn some basic weapon fighting skills together with whatever might come in the package, be it better reflexes, fitness or whatever. And plus it seems to be fun to do.

So basicly…

  1. Anyone out there does/did CMA + Fencing
  2. What do you might see as plus/cons to this mix

(Mods dont move this cos its CMA related :p)

Hmmm

Don’t bother because what you learn from Western fencing is completely different from CMA sword play. Different swords different techniques, applications, its a completely different ball game.
There was also the famous story of a French world champion fencer squaring up against the Taiji Master, Cheng Man-ching. Cheng used Taiji sword technique and absolutely wasted the fencer. Agagin this can come down to many factors, mainly skill is quite probably, but techniques are differnt too. I fear that learning western fencing will di little to lay a foundation, in fact even detract from what you learn in your art later.
The principles for weapons will be found in the empty hand forms why run before you can walk?

Come on man! I hear stories like that all of the time. I really dont put too much into Chinese tales of greatness anymore. I not saying that there wasnt greatness in the old days, but i noticed that a lot of Chinese tales have been sweetin up. For example(fake story),a guy would tell a story like “there was an umarmed monk that beat a swordsman.” It probably is true, but then the next person will tell it like “… beat two swordsmen.” The next guy would say “… three swordmen and the monk was tied up.” Things get way out of whack in Chinese lore. Not all, but some.

Anyway, I agree with r. monkey when he it is different. However, it could be fun and you might learn SOMETHING helpful.

Fists of Fury…meets the 3 Musketeers

Hi Xebsball

You know what, I have read that Bruce Lee had also dabbled in Western-style fencing…probably learning it from his elder brother…So, what you are intending to do is probably approved by the good old master himself :smiley:

Presumption being the mother…

why do people make so mant presumptions here? It is not an age old Chinese tale of greatness, it happen in New York during the Seventies, and my teacher was standing there watching it amongst the other 200 spectators present. Its even on video too.

What was the name of the Champion?

I’ve been studying CMA for almost 5 years, and I started fencing this past January—I’m lovin’ em both, and plan to continue with both, so I’ll give you my perspective. First, if you think Chinese swordsmanship is vastly superior, and that fencing has shallow sword techniques and strategies, then you really should attend a fencing class, and put yourself to the test against a good fencer. That’s what I did.

In Taiji, I’ve mostly studied saber, and just a tiny bit of sword. In my honest opinion, if you were to put a real saber in the hand of your average Taiji guy with 2 yrs. saber experience, and you put a real rapier in the hand of the average fencer with 2 or 3 yrs experience, and had them fight, IMO the fencer would win about 95% of the time. When you start talking about 10 yrs experience, and the Taiji guy has done a LOT more sparring, then the skill levels would equal out, and probably the Taiji guy would be at an advantage because of all the supplemental things he’s learned. I don’t think that either my Taiji or fencing teacher would disagree with that.

Fencing is a great cardiovascular workout—we do about 20 minutes of intense conditioning/footwork drills per class without weapons, and we even do “wall sits”—sort of where you sit in a horse stance with your back against the wall. I do feel that the full speed bouting against a resisting opponent is necessary to really get good at swordfighting, and this is really stressed a lot in fencing.

From my experience, I’ve found a number of similarities between the two—both stress keeping the body really relaxed, both stress keeping the knees slightly bent to maintain a low, stable center of gravity, and keeping your height constant and not bouncing up and down. In fencing you control the weapon primarily with your thumb and forefinger, and you try to develop the “sentiment du fer”—a real sensitivity and subtle control. You start out learning a lot of the parrying techniques in wider circles, and as you advance you try to make the circles smaller and all your movements more subtle. The body mechanics of the fencing lunge are very similar to the “press” from Taiji.

Of course, there’s a lot of differences, too. The foil and epee are both stabbing weapons—the point is the only way to inflict damage. This means there’s a different arsenal of offensive techniques than you would find in CMA. Also, the sporting aspect of fencing means that some of the stuff is martially unrealistic----lighter weapons, limited target areas, techniques that score points but would not be lethal in a real fight, rules such as “right of way”, where only the attacker can score a point even if both hit, etc. CMAs retain more martially realistic techniques, and of course there’s a lot more depth to the additional aspects of the art—barehand techniques, qigong, meditation, health, etc.

One important thing I got from my Taiji teacher is the ol’ “empty your cup” philosophy----I went into fencing with the attitude that I didn’t know anything about swordfighting, and that’s been useful. I try to notice differences and similarities between them, and I’m sure useful things that I learn in one may sometimes come out in the other, but for the most part I try to focus on what my teacher is telling me in each art. Personally, I’ve found them more mutually supportive rather than detrimental to my swordsmanship—you just have to remember that they’re different arts with a different focus. I love them both.

I don’t want to place too much meaning on this, but a friend of mine, Jessie Burke, is a world class fencer. She was homeschooled and raised on fencing and is now training for the 2004 olympic games.

We’ve talked a bit about martial arts and fencing and her comments can be summed up as: fencing is a sport with very limiting rules, totally different from the martial arts. If you wanna be good at fencing, fence, don’t fight with swords.

On Fencing

Fencing was high among my martial pursuits. I am certified as a provost master (in fact at the time, I was the youngest to be double certified in the USA) competed NCAA and nationally (although I’ll be honest, my record was unspectacular) and worked as a full time armorer at American Fencers for several years (although again to be honest, my position was more focused on the historic weapons, but I could still rig an electric if I needed to…) check out they’re website - www.amfence.com - I think they still have my original line drawings as part of their catalog.

Fencing is one of the closest games you can get to actual sword combat, especially epee. I think only the Japnese arts get a better piece of it. Padded sticks and nerf swords just don’t give you the proper ‘sentiment du fer.’ Fencing theory is one of the most elegant ways to describe combat, it’s so mathematical and scientific. In fact, if you study it, you can penetrate Bruce Lee’s theories rather quickly, since much of his work was based on fencing theory. But the key is you have to study the historical stuff to make it all make sense. Modern fencing has made many compromises, not unlike modern wushu, but a little research can quickly reveal the essence of combat fencing. That’s always the key, get to the root.

Personally, fencing taught my a lot about sword and really fed into my broadsword and straight sword. There’s a lot of overlap, but you have to consider a few factors. Fencing was a duelling art, so it was one-on-one. Kungfu sword forms address multiple opponents. Also, there was a code of honor in duelling, so no kicking, punching, etc. Kungfu, well, there’s honor there, but not in the same way. You can roll on the ground and throw dirt in their face and that’s a cool move. So it’s very true that fencing is more limited than kungfu. Additionally, fencing weapons were highly developed to be light, fast and sharp, so power is not a factor. With this kind of weapon, you can just pierce the vitals and be done. Kungfu weapons were heavier and required power.

But fencing moves in real time, real fast, so you get a good sense of what sword combat would be like, much better form practice. And best of all, every once in a while, you can really run some one through safely. :smiley:

Clarification

Let me be more clear here. I don’t want to put down Wesdtern Fencing I’m saying as an opinion that if one is to learn internal Sword form, I couldn’t see the point in learning wetsern fencing as they are 2 different schools of thought. I don’t want to critisise or uphold one over the other, and maybe I shouldn’t of included the Taiji story as it isn’t totally relevant I guess. This may of not provided an example of superiority over arts merely the individuals skills.
However I will try to find out his name, the fencer that is, but it is documented.

Repulsive M, Richie, Thomas, Ky-Fi and shaolinboxer, Gene…
I apreciate your opinions, keep em coming.

I dont mean to be authoritary or anything but, well this is MY THREAD :D, and i apreciate if this didnt turn into a European vs Chinese vs Japanese swordsmaship discussion. Thats simply not the point of this post.
We can go on blah blah blah about a italian master defeating a japanese master that defeated the mother of a chinese master that worked on a restaurant and humiliated a french swordsman that was cousin of a famous painter who used to drive a BMW on summers and a Mercedes on winters but never really flyed on a plane that cut the throat of a disciple of Myiamoto Musashi wich defeated a British master who wanted to be queen of England…
and wed get nowhere.

About the taiji 2 years vs the fencing, i think that a person that specialises in sword training will always defeat the one that doesnt. In this case, the fencer trains full time sword while the taiji guy maybe, just maybe does 50% training with weapons.

Thomas
:smiley: The way of the rapier fist

why not give kendo a go?

Was this meant for me?

Xebs - I’m consdering getting my certicifation in French fencing right now, I’ve been a Fencer for about 6 years , and I’m also a very new prctitioner of Praying Mantis KF.

         It's very herd to describe on art in terms of the other, sicne they are for the most part totally different. Fencing will quickly give you a functional weapons base however. Knife tactics are pretty easily grafted on to fencing. A while ago,on this board, someone posted a Millitary manual on comatives, in the manual , the lines of attack , the stance and the attacks were for the most part borrowed from Fencing.

        I know I chornically use Fencing footwork in sparring, I think it makes me much faster. I tend to "shuffle" a lot. I don't really know what else to say, do you have any other questions?

         To those who say fencing is heavily restricted in target area etc, this is not true, epee fencing has a whole body target, and contact rules here are looser.

Re: Was this meant for me?

Originally posted by dre
[B]Xebs - I’ve been a Fencer for about 6 years

         . [/B]

picket, or chain link?

Stone.

Originally posted by dre
Stone.

isn’t that more of a wall?

Getting more in detail since my previous post i didnt have much time…

Hey this is probably my 2nd most popular thread ever haha :smiley:

-It would be also interesting if any of you guys happen to do a internal style tell me if doing such external could hold back my progress on internal.

-So Gene, are you what they call a “Mestre D’Armas”?

-There is no kendo in my area, and also im the kind of guy that doesnt like doing the kiai.

-Repulsive, my idea is that since ill only be able to train Xing Yi one time a week (i gotta travel 3 hours), it will really take a great deal of time until i can get to the weapons, plus the fact that the school is pointed towards empty hand fighting. So with the short time avalible i think it would be hard to be able to do all the drills/sparring of weapons since so much time is spent on empty hands.
Also i dont intend to start both right away, that wouldnt be wise. I want to learn the very basics of Xing Yi before getting to fence.

A interesting question:
-What about using the principles/forces of internal (assuming i learn them) in fencing?

I have been practising Xingyi for some years now and one of the senior students at the school used to be a fencer…he has a lot of good points about xingyi and other MA from his background i fencing.
I think its very different with people…what they see in their arts.

Well, I think it kind of depends on what kind of an approach to “internal principles” you’re being taught. My Taiji teacher always explained them in a very logical, non-mystical way, and he always gave lots of non-taiji examples for everything. While there are some unique methods and principles in taiji, to a large extent I find the whole qigong thing to just be a different paradigm than the western model—it just uses a different framework to describe a lot of the same physical processes. I always use my analogy of a baseball pitcher doing something very similar to taiji—for his pitch, he relaxes his body, calms and focuses his mind, then he starts his windup, sinking in his chest to store his jing while reversing his breathing to draw in his dantien on the inhale, then he pushes off from his rooted foot and the energy goes through his waist and relaxed upper body in a whiplike pulse, while sharply exhaling and pushing out his dantien for the release of the ball—all very similar to “brush knee, step forward” in taiji.

I know there’s some things in taiji (and taiji saber) like “peng”, that doesn’t really translate to fencing, but I find a good deal of the stuff applies. And, as has been mentioned, and from my limited experience, fencing relies VERY little on muscular strength-dominant techniques—so I don’t think your’re going to be doing tons of exercises that run counter to “internal” styles.

OK, I have a question for Gene:

As you seem to be into the historical roots of fencing, maybe you can understand where I’m coming from----I’ve been learning the foil with the French grip, and the traditional side of me want to remain with that grip permanently. However, I believe most competetive foil people eventually adopt the pistol grips. What’s your take on that?

Actually I take that back about “peng” not applying----I was thinking of it in a more offensive manner with taiji saber, but I guess defensively peng could certainly apply—particularly when you’re defending against an overhead strike to the head when you’re fencing saber…hmmmm…it’s got me thinking…:slight_smile: