Chinese MA + Western Sport Fencing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

I have trained in CMA for 15 years, but started fencing at the start of this year. I love it! It is great fun.

However, if you are going to train both, you should make sure you make it clear to yourself that they are seperate things. Sure there is some crossover, but that is more in strategy than technique. Like they say, empty your cup first :slight_smile:

I found in bouts, the hardest thing to get used to was not driving for power, but rather agility. I was so used to attacking with power that the first time I actually fenced (as opposed to drilling) I broke 2 foils - the master at arms was not happy :(.

Apart from that, I really enjoy fencing. I think it trains up different attributes to what my CMA does, and it does force you to think differently (mainly because in foil fencing you are restricted in several ways).

My advice though - make sure you are confortable in your Xing Yi before you take up fencing, otherwise you may end up confusing yourself :).

22

I have fenced all my life since I was nine and it never conflicted with martial arts practice at all and is truly a great passtime, passion and endeavour.

Gene, I didn’t realize you fence. I knew you were big on swords but anyway…I digress.

One of the cool things I found after I had been doing Kung Fu for a while was an old fencing manual, or at least a part of it in another publication.
What it showed was attacks, defenses and techniques associated with epee, foil and sabre of the european traditions.

Mirrored against these prints were woodcuttings of japanese swordplay.

Wouldn’t you know it, many techniques using like blades were very similar. Many of the footwork stances and patterns of attack were also similar.

Mathematical and scientific for sure, the human body works thus and with a sword in hand it does this. :smiley:
I still have a pair of Paul Foils in good shape. Muchos fun.

peace

23

hmmmm… everyone that i have talked to before has hated fencing with epees. something about using a car antenna for a sword isn’t as appealing as a nice, luxurious rapier.

i would suggest that if u do go into fencing, go into rapier fencing or sword-and-parrying-dagger fencing… most people like these alot, but some people question the effectiveness of the sword-and-parring-dagger style… (it is cool :P)

i believe if u can find an AEMMA school, they teach fencing… they teach everything in western combat :stuck_out_tongue:

anywayz, just a heads up there
Julien

p.s. (ya, i don’t like epees too… i find that fencing with epees isn’t as much skill as chance… u watch the olympics and the duels only last about 1 second. just a bunch of poking and then a scream of frustration. gambling… i could be wrong but i see this as another reason people don’t like epee fencing.)

24

Re: Getting more in detail since my previous post i didnt have much time…

Xebsball:

-It would be also interesting if any of you guys happen to do a internal style tell me if doing such external could hold back my progress on internal.

Never done much internal stuff. You will develop explosive power with weapons in Fencing. Lunges and Fleche attacks have to be fast and furious to work.

-There is no kendo in my area, and also im the kind of guy that doesnt like doing the kiai.

Me nether. Yelling is not my thing. I take tow yell-less arts.

-my idea is that since ill only be able to train Xing Yi one time a week (i gotta travel 3 hours), it will really take a great deal of time until i can get to the weapons, plus the fact that the school is pointed towards empty hand fighting. So with the short time avalible i think it would be hard to be able to do all the drills/sparring of weapons since so much time is spent on empty hands.Also i dont intend to start both right away, that wouldnt be wise. I want to learn the very basics of Xing Yi before getting to fence.

Fencing is Superior! (ala Realek). lol , j/k.

A interesting question:
-What about using the principles/forces of internal (assuming i learn them) in fencing?

Jeez, I don’t know about this, but I KNOW for a fact, that the longer you fence, the more you get a feel for the people you sparr. So you can easily pick out the holes in a person’s defence with a look when you get pretty good. You can spot bad footwork , or holes in the gaurd , and from there you can lay your plans. . . . It’s hard for me to really tell you , since I’ve been a fencer since 10 or 9. European weapons are home for me :slight_smile:

Julien :
“hmmmm… everyone that i have talked to before has hated fencing with epees. something about using a car antenna for a sword isn’t as appealing as a nice, luxurious rapier”

For some reason, everyone fixates on Foil , there are 3 big weapons! There is Foil, then Saber , then Epee! The Epee is actually much heavier than the other two, and you can get quite hurt if you don’t know how to use it correctly! A few months ago we had someone with two broken ribs.

“p.s. (ya, i don’t like epees too… i find that fencing with epees isn’t as much skill as chance… u watch the olympics and the duels only last about 1 second. just a bunch of poking and then a scream of frustration. gambling… i could be wrong but i see this as another reason people don’t like epee fencing.)”

Wow, you are very stupid. Epee is the highest level of Fencing, it is no longer a pracitce weapon at that point, one hit to any part of the body, and you’re out.

[/B][/QUOTE]

25

i’m stupid because i don’t like epees?

what u just said about it being ‘one hit to any part of the body, and you’re out’ completely confirms the luck theory…

sure, if u hold the title as the best epee fighter in the world and u are constantly challenged, 1 lucky poke could change that because one poke and u’re out…

if u go by scoring hits, it may be 8… that green swordsman will have to get in 8 lucky shots. (unless he hits in critical areas… i forget what school uses this system)

epees are alright, but rapiers just have that much more oomph.

if you’re fighting someone with, say, hardened leather armor, u are most likely screwed unless u practice sharpening it everyday. (swords rarely stayed sharp… constant use caused they to dull and owners just didn’t bother with the tedious exercise.)

epees are probably unparalelled (sp?) in unarmored combat but in armored combat, u need something with more weight behind it’s blade (the blade doesn’t have to be heavier, just balanced differently)

u can probably see what i am talking about.

oh, and we probably focus on rapiers more than epees because rapiers look cooler and have an actual blade… they don’t just pick up radio waves hehe

no hard feelings
Julien.

26

Ummmm, the epee is supposed to be a rapier but modified for competition fencing.

27

My favorite sword to fence with is the foil. Most people like it the least as it is generally taught first (and thus seen as inferior) and has the most restrictive rules. However, these same factors also make it the fastest and the most technical. No matter what sword you fence with, you won’t be learning a self-defense sword art (and even if you were, the value of such a thing is obviously limited these days). The specialization in foil allows you to concentrate more on the attributes that can be built through fencing practice, which will benefit your other martial endeavors.

Xebs - Don’t worry too much about the internal/external stuff. Mostly, in terms of the internals, you want to avoid training which promotes tension and/or resistance. This shouldn’t be a problem with fencing. There will be a few bad habits you are at risk of picking up, but this will be true of any two arts.

28

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Julien
[B]
“what u just said about it being ‘one hit to any part of the body, and you’re out’ completely confirms the luck theory…”

Well thats where the Martial Art part comes in, you must evade getting hit, yet hit yourself.

“sure, if u hold the title as the best epee fighter in the world and u are constantly challenged, 1 lucky poke could change that because one poke and u’re out…”

Most epee Matches aren’t 1 pointers, but it’s often used as a tie-braker.

“if u go by scoring hits, it may be 8… that green swordsman will have to get in 8 lucky shots. (unless he hits in critical areas… i forget what school uses this system)”

It’s actually 15. And FYI , green swordsman really suck. All they can do is swing, they have no defence, no movement, they are just targets.

“epees are alright, but rapiers just have that much more oomph.”

An epee is a sport Rapier.

“if you’re fighting someone with, say, hardened leather armor, u are most likely screwed unless u practice sharpening it everyday. (swords rarely stayed sharp… constant use caused they to dull and owners just didn’t bother with the tedious exercise.)”

Umm, actually no, the reason western systems concentrate on stabbing is becuase it conentrates power in the tip , power that can go though light armour. Stabbing is also much more deadly than slashing.

“epees are probably unparalelled (sp?) in unarmored combat but in armored combat, u need something with more weight behind it’s blade (the blade doesn’t have to be heavier, just balanced differently)”

Maybe , but in the West, westill favor stabs over slashes.

“oh, and we probably focus on rapiers more than epees because rapiers look cooler and have an actual blade… they don’t just pick up radio waves hehe”

UGh. Epees are sport rapiers.

29

Of couse it’s a self-defence sword art. What other purpose was it invented for? Thats why you advance in fencing to swords with less rules and restrictions.

30

I don’t think the fencing we do today is quite like the fencing that was done for people training to defend their lives with their swords. Even with epee, the restrictions on your movement and “secondary” techniques are so strict that it could not even be an rough approximation of a self-defense encounter with swords. Which is not to say that it won’t build great attributes for such a situation, but I allready said that.

31

Braden, your take on the foil is interesting. I’ve mostly done foil since January, but the last class we got to try out epee and saber–no bouting, just some drills. And, the instructor explained a lot about the differences in bouts with the different weapons. I had initially assumed I would gravitate more towards epee or saber, and while I still will give them a chance, I think I may lean more towards foil. As I understand it, there seems to be more blade exchanges and parry/riposting stuff in foil, which I find the most fun. Also, while you could argue that having more targets in epee and saber is more realistic, I suppose you could also argue that being required to hit the body in foil means that you’re focusing on more realistically lethal techniques…at least that’s my take as a beginner.

32

European fencing

I read an interesting book fairly recently titled “The Fencing
Master.” The story, an interesting one, goes into the
mind of the fencer and the various schools during the 1800s.
I highly recommend it to fencers from any tradition.

33

Some of you will really like this. It’s been floating around for a few years now (roughly 400 or so hahahaha)

check it out, definitely an interesting read.

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

peace

34

More on fencing

XB: Just ‘cause you started it, doesn’t mean it’s your thread. That’s not the way a forum works.:wink: But I totally agree with you that we should resist the temptation to get into vs. arguments - it’s not the art, it’s the man.
I’m certified as a Provost, or prevost d’ armes. I actually have two diplomas, one under the United States Fencing Coaches Assn. and another from the Army ROTC. The USFCA is recognized by the Federation Internationale D’Escrime, fencing’s international governing body. There are three teaching degrees: Instructor (give beginning lesson in one weapon) Prevost (give a beginning lesson in one weapon and and advanced in one weapon) and Master (maestro - advacned lessons in all three.) A verbal, written and demonstrative examination is required with a board of 3 masters, plus a thesis. I specialized in epee and did my thesis on the Book of Five Rings applied to Western Fencing. I was trained in both the French and Italian schools.

KF: As for the old handle debate, use what makes you win the most. Don’t be attached to a traditional grip or a modern grip. Be practical. Actually the Italian grip is the most traditional, but the french still dominates. I prefered a Belgium or German myself. It’s all personal preference.

KL: Stop following me :wink:

35

Gotta say I am enjoying fencing more and more each time I go to class. Fenced a guy who I beat, then found out later that he was fighting wrong-handed to rest his injured hand. Very humbling :).

Gene - you probably told us before, but how long have you been fencing?

36

The judges in my area don’t really interpret the rules very strickty, I even had someone trying to hold me in one tournament. Becides it used to be that all you get for cora cora in epee was a warning.

37

Well, I don’t compete, I am just doing training bouts right now and the refs are the senior students (or the Maestro) so the judging can be a little off sometimes. Ultimately I take the attitude that I am the newbie and I know nothing about refereeing.

Someone trying to hold onto you seems a bit much though :).

BTW in foil fencing, what are the rules surrounding contact with the ground e.g. are you allowed to put your free hand on the ground during an attack? What about if your slip/fall over?

38

Re: More on fencing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeneChing
XB: Just 'cause you started it, doesn’t mean it’s your thread. That’s not the way a forum works.:wink: But I totally agree with you that we should resist the temptation to get into vs. arguments - it’s not the art, it’s the man.

Aye it is. I would be a very poor judge of what is better or worse since my fencing has years on my KF.

. There are three teaching degrees: Instructor (give beginning lesson in one weapon) Prevost (give a beginning lesson in one weapon and and advanced in one weapon) and Master (maestro - advacned lessons in all three.) A verbal, written and demonstrative examination is required with a board of 3 masters, plus a thesis. I specialized in epee and did my thesis on the Book of Five Rings applied to Western Fencing. I was trained in both the French and Italian schools.

I’m thinking of applying to be an instructor , could you please tell me what the test is like? I don’t think I want to teach right now, but it’s a nice thing to have under my proverbial “belt”. BTW, I’m a French Fencer, with a littel Hungarian for flavor.

"KF: As for the old handle debate, use what makes you win the most. Don’t be attached to a traditional grip or a modern grip. Be practical. Actually the Italian grip is the most traditional, but the french still dominates. I prefered a Belgium or German myself. It’s all personal preference. "

I’ve always had a lot of trouble with the Belgian and German, they always make my hand “stick” , so I’m one of the very few who uses the French. Although I do know a guy who uses the old handlebar Italian.

39

What do you get when a guy learns CMA and Western Fencing ?? A really BAD actor…

To Xebsball:

Latest news release: HongKong-based Golden Harvest Film Studios has just announced a latest martial arts film, to be directed by Academy Award-winning director, Lee Ang. It is titled, " the Way of the Rapier Fist". The story is about a Brazilian martial artist, Xebsball aka Genital Grinder II, who had mastered the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and that of Western fencing, who then combines them both to form the Way of the Rapier Fist. The final climax in the movie would be that Xebsball would go level by level up a Chinese pagoda, not unlike " The Game of Death", and uses his rapier fists to go against top martial artists at every level. Potential villains being considered would include Samo Hung, Jacky Chan, Jet Li, a completely digital and computer-generated Bruce Lee, and Michael Jordan, whom Xebsball will fight at the top level of the pagoda. Expect lots of slow motion computer enhanced moves like that in the Matrix, and a ridiculous storyline that includes Xebsball learning to walk on water without sinking… The film is expected to premiere in U.S. theatres in summer 2003. Stay tuned.

:smiley:

Thomas Chen

40

Of Course try Fencing!!!

I had the pleasure of fencing for over a decade- although saber is my preffered weapon- foil gives you excellent point control and epee helps ones focus and patience-

I’ve also tried a variety of martial arts- kendo, kumdo, arnis, kali, jiu-jitsu, judo, hapkido, tae kwon do, sambo, -just to try- but i’ve been practicing kung fu for about 7 years-

I’ve placed 1st or 2nd in about 12 weapon sparring events at kung fu tournaments- and to be honest - i’m not that good at either fencing or kung fu- it’s my hobby (that i take seriously)-

I found that some current kung fu weapon practioners are more theory than application- if you win a forms division it doesnt mean that you will automatically win an actual combat situation.

how does a boxer handle a grappler? a kicker handle a boxer?

the way to find out is to try…and western fencing is a safe way to experience weapon conact.

think about trying to hit a golf ball or baseball by only practicing you swing not actually ever hitting the ball!!