Chin Na question regarding styles

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

I was thinking earlier while reading my Shaolin Chin Na book and came to ponder about applications of it. In the book it says how it can be easily adapted to any style of martial art, so I was curious, is Chin Na the same for every style, but follow up techniques different? If I were to say buy the 72 Joint Locks of Eagle Claw Chin Na Part 1 and 72 Joint Locks of Eagle Claw Chin Na Part 2, would they teach the same techniques as found in the Shaolin Chin Na videos Part 1 and Part 2?

I realize that follow up techniques would differ for each art, but was just seeing if the techniques and applications would be the same, but with different follow ups.

I also ponder this because Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming has a book on Taiji Chin Na and did not know if they were different joint locks.

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How many ways can the joints be bent? This is how many different chin na there can be. Bagua has them and they work well.

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What I am asking is there only 72 total joint locks on the body and that every system that incorporates Chin Na only uses those 72? Or are there say…108, and some only use those 72? Or some only use 24? 48? etc.

4

So wait - you mean chin na has nothing to do with that bony mass at the bottom of your face?

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I think that the basic locks will be the same, and they might show you different approaches to the same type of hold in eagle’s claw. I’m not an expert in chin na or eagle claw. But IMO, there is only so much chin na you can use before it becomes too fancy, like in that book you have (I have it too), there were some finger locks where you use two hands on one hand, that are not practical to use in a real fight, unless your a bigger guy vs. a smaller opponent.

I mean Chin Na will only get you so far, before you realize, “I have to hit that MoFo. first before I lock him out.”

6

Yes,
Chin Na to lead their body and them WHAM!:smiley:

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Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
So wait - you mean chin na has nothing to do with that bony mass at the bottom of your face?

You mean the Chin?..

Naahh!

:wink:

8

You’re making too much of the numbers.

There are basic principle for Chin Na (Qinna). For example, one principle for one type of Qinna is to move a joint into a stress region of extension and then stress it more.

Taking this concept, you then take a particular joint and ask “What is the stress region for the joint? What do I have to do to put that joint into a stress region? What do I have to do to apply more stress once I am there? And finally…HOW do I get to the starting point and follow through from a dynamic situation”

Once you have those questions, the answers may differ in the how for the setup and the what for the follow through depending on the style but the basic concept and mechanics for that type of Qinna will be the same.

There are other types of Qinna - for example stressing the muscle or ligaments…and so on.

So, my point is, if you grasp the concept and then grasp the flow of what your body does and how your style (personal or otherwise) workd, you will end up with any number of Qinna techniques but they all break down into basics.

The codified ones are simply codified for basics and understanding the concepts.

9

GLW Mauls The Correct

I have Dr. Ming’s book also. GLW has performed Chin Na’s Dim Mak (Prison Sex ReMix) on the correct. On pages 26 & 27 Dr. Ming discusses the “construction of Chin Na techniques”. After a break down of the basic principles of Chin Na Dr. Ming says, “By folllowing and keeping in mind all of these guidelines the experienced martial artist can construct his own Chin Na techniques. But only those martial artists who are compotent in theory and practice should try to make up their own techniques. Innovation has always been a vital part of Wu Su, but it can only come about through a mastery of basic skills and knowledge.” I take that to mean that as one gains more and more understanding of the main Chin Na principles, you will see more opportunities for more techniques when you need to. I have always thought Chin Na to be the most adaptable CMA. The same principles Dr. Ming spoke of were used to preserve the effectiveness of the techniques my instructor changed for me. Chin Na is also a way to focus on the foundation of techniques, and move away from the situationally dependent techniques within some traditional forms. With the primary focus on expressing all of the principle foundations in every Chin Na technique, the number that could be created would be limited only by the imagination of the martial artist.

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Originally posted by SanSoo Student
But IMO, there is only so much chin na you can use before it becomes too fancy, like in that book you have (I have it too), there were some finger locks where you use two hands on one hand, that are not practical to use in a real fight, unless your a bigger guy vs. a smaller opponent.
This is true. There are finger locks, ear locks, etc. Other locks require extremely complicated setups. While perhaps not practical in many situations, these locks can help you understand some principle that will help improve the bread-and-butter locks.

The two-hand-on-one locks are intended to quickly put the opponent in enough pain that he can’t (or doesn’t want to) do anything with the other hand except tap out.

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The two-hand-on-one locks are intended to quickly put the opponent in enough pain that he can’t (or doesn’t want to) do anything with the other hand except tap out.

or catch themselves as they hit the pavement…:smiley:

chin na into throws is fun…

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GLW, BentMonk and Tak all pretty much answered me question on the dime. Thanks guys.

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afaik, YJM standardized for his curriculum. I think what you see in his material is a great representation of chin na techniques.

the important part is to understand the basic theory behind dividing the muscle and misplacing the bone. then, I feel, you can forget about ‘technique’ and just fugg up whatever you have in your hand.

fwiw, I’ve seen at least 6 methods of applying the ‘hand wrap’ on the wrist each with it’s own opinion on the best angle of the elbow etc, etc…it’s still basically just applying torque on the joint in 2 different planes…

chin na into throws is fun…

and striking into a chin na into a throw is more fun :wink:

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and striking into a chin na into a throw is more fun

I don’t got dat down like that yet though…:smiley:

I’ll be sure to tell ya when I do.:slight_smile:

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close >> strike >> grab >> wrench >> throw >> strike sum mo

:smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

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btw, NP (and MK and Mizongkid) nice pic

finally got my ish of the rag…must be on the ass end of the distribution cycle.

later…my review of the TZ article…:wink:

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chin na

yes GWL and some of the other guys already provided some very good answers.

i’ll try to add my .02 cents.
there are a handful of fundamental core techniques that are important to grasp (no pun intended), and once you get those you could put together any number of combinations or variations. these combinations are only good if they adhere to certain principles of covering and protecting yourself. there is a danger that making overly elaborate combinations (which seems commonplace), especially w/o really understanding the core technique, and having unrealistic expectations of how they might be used to control an opponent, could do more harm then good.

they are the same joint locks in different systems (there are only so many ways that the body moves) but some systems/teachers may have a higher developed understanding and use of them. diffenent styles usually jsut teach them with different names and variations. i have noticed that some styles don’t seem to ‘have’ all of the core techniques emphasized or developed to the same degree. if they don’t teach all the important basics but have numerous variations of some other techniques, whatever teh number, then it is not a complete chin na system. thats how you would assess and compare systems.

people (Jwing-Ming included) have a tendency to over complicate things. in cataloging and numbering all those different chin na techniques, the core techniques are sort of obscured, like not seeing the forrest through the trees. even though he catagorizes them into dividing tendon, displacing bone, etc (or however exactly he terms them), the fact that these ‘72’ techniques are just variations on several basic core techniques is not always clear. and the number 72 is quite arbitrary imo. maybe it has something to do with the history of his system or something, i forget. and its not that his books are bad, theyre okay, but you have to remember that he’s running a business and will complicate things enough to differentiate himself as the expert and sell more books and seminars.

the book is a decent reference, but it would be confusing trying to learn much besides terms and history from it. forget the numbers. just find a real good teacher(s) (if you havent already) who will concentrate on the core techniques with a hands on approach. the only way to learn it is to feel it and practice practice practice with somebody good who can lead you through the puzzles.

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Workable is the key idea…

For example, Qinna that operates on immobilization and does not require you to absolutely be stronger than the person you are doing the Qinna on is workable.

Qinna that operates on the principle of inflicting pain on the other person is not.

Of course you are now saying “Whoa, wait a minute there…”

Why is it NOT workable…well, there are a number of things that the other person can do to remove pain as a factor. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc… are all very real examples. Personally, after having worked in a psych hospital as the man in the white coat that takes you away, I can say that pain based Qinna does NOT work on a person on Crack, PCP, large amounts of downers, etc… I saw a guy try to kick through a metal door. He broke his foot and ended up not being able to bust the door down. NOT because he was hurting but because the foot was giving way under him as he tried to get up speed for the final assault on the door.

Qinna that works against gravity - bad idea. There are a lot of Qinna techniques that cause the opponent to raise up - on the tip toes often. These are painful…but require you as the person executing the Qinna to maintain an upward force against gravity.

How long do you do this? What happens if you tire before you decide what to do with the person… Or if you slip.

My preference is fo those techniques that either end in a takedown, throw, or break…and move on. Or those techniques that put the opponent sprawled out on the ground in a very unmenacing position. This way, gravity works with you.

I also do not care for Qinna techniques that take a setup and require hand changes, position changes, etc… They are prone to failure due to mistakes. Too complicated gets you hurt.

Also, any Qinna technique that requires better than 50% accuracy is not on my list. If you are off by an inch in a strike, kick, or throw, the opponent is usually still hit or thrown…it just may not do as much damage as if you were dead on.

With Qinna, many of the techniques require dead on accuracy to work. Miss it by a half inch and you get hit. Given how fast a real altercation goes and the fact that I am human, I am simply not going to bet on that type of a technique where my well being is concerned.

Techniques like that are interesting…but in the end, simple is best. Sticking with direct basic principles applied as minimalistically as possible is the way to use it.

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so, in other words, understand the basic mechanics of the joints/tendons and KISS.

I totally agree that YJM has some pretty intricate stuff in his books and it does take prior knowledge to see the forest for the trees. However, there is a progression from ‘Shaolin Chin Na’ through ‘Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na’ and on to ‘Comprehensive Applications of SCN’.

the following is just my .02 (well, maybe .04) on YJM’s chin na books.

‘Shaolin Chin Na’ is as basic as it gets, IMO. The first 50 pages are nothing but conditioning and simple releases. Out of a 159 page book there are only about 60 pages of actual techniques. There is even a section on simple massage. This would be the companion book for a newbie martial artist who is recieving instruction from a competent teacher.

‘Analysis…’ is billed as an instructors manual. So, if someone doesn’t have the basics down, it will seem confusing and even more so with ‘Comprehensive…’

‘Comprehensive…’ does really go out there a bit. But, as the third in what I see as a series, it fits. IMO, an extremely knowledgable chin na practitioner showing his stuff.

The other chin na books he has produced seemed to me to contain material already in one of the above three.

and, no, I’m not a YMAA student nor have I ever met YJM. I’ve had chin na taught to me by every sifu i’ve had as well as some japanese jujitsu and wrestling. These 3 books have been invaluable as aids to learning and improving my own chin na.

as always, seek your initial and ongoing instruction from someone qualified to teach.

GLW, good post, hope you don’t mind some debate on it.

Workable is the key idea…

For example, Qinna that operates on immobilization and does not require you to absolutely be stronger than the person you are doing the Qinna on is workable.

completely agree.

Qinna that operates on the principle of inflicting pain on the other person is not.

Of course you are now saying “Whoa, wait a minute there…”

Why is it NOT workable…well, there are a number of things that the other person can do to remove pain as a factor. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc… are all very real examples. Personally, after having worked in a psych hospital as the man in the white coat that takes you away, I can say that pain based Qinna does NOT work on a person on Crack, PCP, large amounts of downers, etc… I saw a guy try to kick through a metal door. He broke his foot and ended up not being able to bust the door down. NOT because he was hurting but because the foot was giving way under him as he tried to get up speed for the final assault on the door.

I completely agree with your example to back up the initial statement. However, I don’t feel you should not examine and practice ‘pain compliance’ techniques as they will work on a large % of people. Police forces utilize pain compliance at the core of thier techniques and of course have back up plans if it doesn’t work, just as we should.

Qinna that works against gravity - bad idea. There are a lot of Qinna techniques that cause the opponent to raise up - on the tip toes often. These are painful…but require you as the person executing the Qinna to maintain an upward force against gravity.

I don’t feel these techniques are actually working against gravity.
You are causing pain in a manner which makes the person try to move to relieve that pain. Only they can’t because they can’t fly:) So, they are on their toes. The same restrictions for any pain compliance technique will still apply as discussed above.

How long do you do this? What happens if you tire before you decide what to do with the person…

the applicable word here is ‘flow’. None of the apps I know for ‘lifting’ chin na are good submissions. so, you need to move on once control is achieved before you lose said control. or tire.

My preference is fo those techniques that either end in a takedown, throw, or break…and move on. Or those techniques that put the opponent sprawled out on the ground in a very unmenacing position.

mine as well. imo/ime that is the purpose of chin na. the problem with most books is that they show single, unconnected techniques. that’s why you need a teacher, as we all agree.

This way, gravity works with you.

‘why hit someone with your hand or fist if you can hit them with the whole world?’

heard that somewhere. makes sense even if it is a bit melodramatic.

…or if you slip…

I also do not care for Qinna techniques that take a setup and require hand changes, position changes, etc… They are prone to failure due to mistakes. Too complicated gets you hurt.

learning set-ups, hand changes and position changes are necessary for when you slip, screw up, get tired in one position or you suddenly have a non-cooperating person to deal with. what you move from and to with the changes should be simple and the changes themselves should be simple but without changes I feel one would be very staticky (yea, yea) in their approach.

as an aside: the chin na that came out of Remy Presas’ Modern Arnis combined (IMO) a lot of Prof. Wally Jay’s small circle jujitsu and the flow concepts of the arnis. it is from this experience that I draw the above conclusion.

Also, any Qinna technique that requires better than 50% accuracy is not on my list. If you are off by an inch in a strike, kick, or throw, the opponent is usually still hit or thrown…it just may not do as much damage as if you were dead on.

I agree to a large extent but don’t we want to achieve a high level of skill in what we are learning? While a % of applications seen in books (including YJM’s) could be low % apps in general, something that is low % for you or I may not be for someone else.

With Qinna, many of the techniques require dead on accuracy to work. Miss it by a half inch and you get hit. Given how fast a real altercation goes and the fact that I am human, I am simply not going to bet on that type of a technique where my well being is concerned.

[QUOTE]

so are you saying that you feel that chin na techniques are so low % in general that you wouldn’t use them at all? What do you mean by simple?

[QUOTE]Techniques like that are interesting…but in the end, simple is best. Sticking with direct basic principles applied as minimalistically as possible is the way to use it.

Absolutely. However, I think there are varying degrees of simple based on an individuals skill level.

thanks, Matt.

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"
GLW, good post, hope you don’t mind some debate on it.
"

Not at all…

"
I completely agree with your example to back up the initial statement. However, I don’t feel you should not examine and practice ‘pain compliance’ techniques as they will work on a large % of people. Police forces utilize pain compliance at the core of thier techniques and of course have back up plans if it doesn’t work, just as we should.
"

Pain will always be a factor. I am just of the opinion that your choice of methods should not solely rely on pain but rather rely on structural immobilization. That means that by executing the proper technique, the opponent is put in a position where they cannot move or cannot use a body part to threaten you. The fact is that USUALLY, a byproduct of this immobilization is also PAIN…but the pain is not the cause of the immobilization, the immobilization is the cause of the pain. In this way, even if the opponent is stoned out of their mind, you STILL have them immobilized even if they do not feel the pain.

"
the applicable word here is ‘flow’. None of the apps I know for ‘lifting’ chin na are good submissions. so, you need to move on once control is achieved before you lose said control. or tire.
"

I am simply of the opinion that if you are flowing around in Qinna it is probably better to go ahead and break things (remove the threat by making that which threatens you not work). Every time you perform a change, there is a risk of mistake and having it go badly for you. Qinna is actually merciful to the opponent. You do it to control in many cases. When mercy to the opponent becomes masochism or potential masochism to me, I abandon the mercy road. For me, rather than flow to another Qinna, I would probably choose to break what I had, then do a take down in the process that would possibly also include some strike to harm.

“learning set-ups, hand changes and position changes are necessary for when you slip, screw up, get tired in one position or you suddenly have a non-cooperating person to deal with. what you move from and to with the changes should be simple and the changes themselves should be simple but without changes I feel one would be very staticky (yea, yea) in their approach.”

Again, my preference for the changes is to do something that disables things rather than continue with another lock. Most Qinna can be turned into a break of the joint you are working on (for joint Qinna). If you have a person that simply won’t let you lock and stay where you are, lock, break, then move to another thing.

"I agree to a large extent but don’t we want to achieve a high level of skill in what we are learning? While a % of applications seen in books (including YJM’s) could be low % apps in general, something that is low % for you or I may not be for someone else.
"

In most arts, you have Da(striking), Ti(kicking), Shuai(throwing,wrestling), and Na(locking/grasping). Very few arts place Na as the most important. Given the amount of time required for proficiency and the time demands of modern life, I simply feel that the other three types of techniques yield more repeatable results for the time put in. (I also have seen a number of folks that simply want to leanr Qinna but not the rest of the art. Sort of like saying give me the keys but not the car and the gas…and they usually have the poorest basics as well - so I avoid such things personally)