Chi Sim Weng Chun lineage...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I was just looking through my old copy of “Quo Vadis Ving Tsun” written by two Germans (in English) in 1988. They have on page 19 a picture a picture of Cheng Kwong and Wai Yan and a “Ving Tsun” family tree on pages 44 and 45.

According to the book these guys trained at least some time unter Cheng Kwong and interviewed him extensively in the 80s…that was either around the time Andreas Hoffman started learning Weng Chun, slightly before or slightly after.

In any case, the family tree lists Wai Yan as a student of Pan Nam and Cheng Kwong as a student of Wai Yan.

So…where is the Pan Nam connection in Chi Sim Weng Chun? Is it just a misunderstanding on the Authors’ part or did they really hear some info into that direction from Cheng Kwong or Wai Yan back then?

Just wondering…since this seems a little odd.

Mustafa

2

here is a link to the history of Weng Chun!

This Weng Chun web page is done quite well and very clear!

I personally like the picture of “the 5 dragons of Weng chun” and thier pupils!

http://www.weng-chun.com/index_e.htm

GM Hoffman is always a pleasure to speak to you will find him to be very open about the rich Weng Chun history. If I’m not mistaken this web page has a clip of GM Pan nam doing a Qi gong excercise!

Chango

3

Mustafa,

Lineage “purity” is more of a modern conceit. In the old days, because skills were still needed to defend life and land, people learned from whomever could teach them more/better (ironically, how many of the lineages some now struggle to keep pure where founded).

I have no specific knowledge of Wai Yan sifu learning from Pan Nam, but there are strong links between the two arts. Pan Nam learned, in part, from a friend of his named Pak Cheung, who was an expert in Fung Siu-Ching’s lineage. Likewise, I think Andreas Hoffmann learned from Pan Nam for a time while he was in China.

If you look up Pan Nam, you’ll see he had many sifu, quite a few in Hung and related arts, and quite a few in Wing/Weng Chun. And there were others who followed similar paths. Many very good modern practicitioners do the same, some to collect, others to excel.

BTW - I would suggest contacting Hoffmann sifu directly for more on Wai Yan in specific and any connection he may or may not have had to Pan Nam.

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@Chango
Thanks for your help. I got some private explanations from Andreas’ guys in Germany, which totally satisfied my questions.

I’ll go visit Andreas the next time I can manage to find some time in Germany. They seem like a friendly bunch. :slight_smile:

@Rene
It might have been advantagous back then to learn the best you can find from different lineages. Back then (1800s and early 1900s) people actually did use their Wing Chun to defend themselves. So, if you could find someone to show you the good stuff, the better.

However, nowadays, it would be a big mistake to go around mixing and matching all kinds of lineages, since, in my opinion, a lot of the Wing Chun knowledge has been lost and replaced by peoples’ own interpretations of “what it should be” without the time proven testing that has been done in the 1800s. So you end of with a “Hodgepodge” Wing Chun, which might be better than the next person’s “HodgePodge”, but still not much better. Maybe it’s not even Wing Chun anymore.

I personally don’t believe in the “refinement and continuation of the development in Wing Chun”. Wing Chun is in the category of the “dying arts” and knowledge already got lost due to societal changes and teachers dying with their knowledge etc. Whatever people think they are “refining” today or “advancing and developing” are useless laboratory attempts at filling the holes in their Wing Chun knowledge.

The best thing would be to find someone, who, as a result of an unbroken line of transmission, actually did learn Wing Chun more or less completely (complete is interepreted in all kinds of ways nowadays..i’m aware of that) and has the fighting knowledge to have tested his understanding of the methods and then stick with those methods. I think Wing Chun needs to be preserved more than anything to keep its effectiveness as a martial art. Mixing and matching won’t do the job.

For example: If you mix one of the Yip Man varieties with Sum Nung’s Wing Chun, I would almost guarantee you that you will end up with something that will just confuse the hell out of you and is probably worse than the original ingredients of the mix.

However, it is possible to pick up ideas across lineages, but that should only happen, if for some reason, your own Sifu is not giving you the whole picture and you have not understood the methods. I realize that that is more the rule than the exception nowadays…unfortunately.

I realize that finding someone like that is next to impossible for most people nowadays, so the next best thing does become going around and trying to complete one’s knowledge by seeking all kinds of self-proclaimed gurus with the exclusive latest findings in Wing Chun. :slight_smile:

I for one, would stay away from a rooster that has the loudest voice and anyone who claims to have learned and mixed several lineages from questionable sources, mostly FAR removed from anyone with verifiable knowledge, created his own lineage, and is teaching all of those today. Unfortunately, there are quite a few of those today…

Take care,
Mustafa

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Great post if you ask me!

Mustafa,
I have to say that I agree with alot of what you posted here! I find that you comunicated your point quite well!

I strongly agree that we must work hard to preserve WCK! I feel very strongly about every student no matter what lineage owes it to the system and that lineage ancestors to train hard to get the complete art and find out exactly what the system is trying to comunicate.

I know there are many views on this topic but I personally do not like the idea of some people’s socalled “refinements”. And heck yeah a person that encounters life and death situations with thier kung fu or should I say uses their kung fu for survivial everday will have a better vantange point as to what is real and not real in life and death experiences. This is why I take every oppertunity to apply my kung fu to gain as many experiences as I can and I feel as a teacher It is vital as a teacher to make sure that I offer my students experiences in as many ways to us and apply thier kung fu. I have really found that this builds the student confidence and really gets them beyond static thinking.

I don’t have any problems with people training more then one WCK but I feel very strongly about keeping each identity clear. Sure WCK will be realated but it does the information a disservice by just saying “it’s all the same”. I find that although realated the different leneages can be very different. In alot of cases it can be even the same term with a simular body position but when put into a different context the whole thing can change. That is why I a stictler to my students about saying “oh so it it like This” I always say “no it is what it is and nothing else don’t be lazy do the work learn it for what it is not what you assume!”

I really love training the Chi sim system. The Chi sim family is a strong family and a very pleasant one. Let me know if I can help you answer any questions. This will help me learn more as well. I’m sure you will have questions I haven’t thought of!
I wish you and your well!

Sifu Chango Noaks :wink:

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I strongly agree that we must work hard to preserve WCK! I feel very strongly about every student no matter what lineage owes it to the system and that lineage ancestors to train hard to get the complete art and find out exactly what the system is trying to comunicate. ----

Good point.

But, I disagree it is hard to preserve WCK.

As soon as people stop making his-stories and mix different things … WCK itself is pure until someone mix and create more stories and adding unrelated styles. so, it is simple, just leave it as it is.

But,
Certainly for some, similar to art of everywhere, and human practice in the history, it is very hard to not making his story anymore. because thier status is based on stories.

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Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
[B]@Chango
Thanks for your help. I got some private explanations from Andreas’ guys in Germany, which totally satisfied my questions.

[/B]

OK man! Spill the beans! :slight_smile: Now you’ve got me curious about this Pan Nam - Chi Sim WCK connection. What did you learn?

Keith

8

well said

However, nowadays, it would be a big mistake to go around mixing and matching all kinds of lineages, since, in my opinion, a lot of the Wing Chun knowledge has been lost and replaced by peoples’ own interpretations of “what it should be” without the time proven testing that has been done in the 1800s. So you end of with a “Hodgepodge” Wing Chun, which might be better than the next person’s “HodgePodge”, but still not much better. Maybe it’s not even Wing Chun anymore.

true.

I personally don’t believe in the “refinement and continuation of the development in Wing Chun”. Wing Chun is in the category of the “dying arts” and knowledge already got lost due to societal changes and teachers dying with their knowledge etc. Whatever people think they are “refining” today or “advancing and developing” are useless laboratory attempts at filling the holes in their Wing Chun knowledge.
exactly
The best thing would be to find someone, who, as a result of an unbroken line of transmission, actually did learn Wing Chun more or less completely (complete is interepreted in all kinds of ways nowadays..i’m aware of that) and has the fighting knowledge to have tested his understanding of the methods and then stick with those methods. I think Wing Chun needs to be preserved more than anything to keep its effectiveness as a martial art. Mixing and matching won’t do the job.
agree. Very well said MustafaUcozler.