just thought I would pick a few more experienced minds out there ‘’ joy , old jong ?‘’
I’ve been rolling with a lot of different people lately and I keep seeing this silly trend , beyond the dudes that just want to chain punch all day ‘’ that will for ever be a part of wing chun’’
lately it’s like either you got guys with good feel and understand the energy and purpose of chi sau , or you got the freaks that grab and tear and pull and climb up on you like there lives depended on the hit ,
now I have tried , first to be polite and explain we are not fighting , to relax and feel what’s going on , I even keep things slow and non threatening , leave gaps to help there responses and reflexes .
but they still go nuts
I let them grab my arms and tug and pull me close , I still relax and try and talk them down ,
I have become frustrated and shell shocked them , or even bit them , head butted them when they continue to try to wreck havoc on me, telling them that if the wish to step out of the shell of chi sau and turn training into fighting anything fly’s
they seem to respond to pain but I hate being that way
just curious what some of you tell your students when things leave the scope of chi sau
Ernie, in my experience much the same thing happens with wrestling matches, at least as far as rolling in BJJ goes.
Most guys are happy just to roll around with a reasonable amount of energy, to experiment and explore, to treat a tap they get at a bonus but fell just (well OK, almost) as good for the other guy when he taps them.
A minority go as if their life depended on submitting the other guy, or if he got anything on them they’d be sent to the electric chair. They start spazzing, punching, using elbows, etc.
Ask them to play nice once, maybe twice. Let 'em get a few in just to feed their ego so that they’ll hopefully relax and treat it as learning rather than a clash of the titans.
If they persist, maybe sting them once or twice and ask them to tone it down. If they persist, just refuse to roll or chi sao with them any more. They are the ones who will ultimately suffer because on one will work out with them.
[[If they persist, just refuse to roll or chi sao with them any more.]]
with outsiders i can do this but sometimes i’m instructed to teach people , and this is the tough part , if it were the ground game i would just relax and let them wear themselves out or give them a little choke and let them go limp ,
but in chi sau ‘’ though i have and will choke some one out ‘’ it’s not really alowed ,
and here is the funny thing often i am asked to test were a kung fu brothers skill is at ,
the catch is i can’t hit them i can only control , push pull , and take position ,
this is were i really see all the compettive nature and ‘’ let me take it to si hing ‘’ intent
thanks for the reply , and the advice it good i wish i could just walk away from the over commited types , but i’m also a sucker when it comes to help people learn i consider the relationship between work out partners a very sacred thing , in the sense we are allowing another person to practice things that could inflict major damage , the level of trust and respect and genuine concern for the other persons well being and advancement is top prority for me ,
that’s why i don’t get the whole competitive thing
Ernie asks-
just curious what some of you tell your students when things leave the scope of chi sau
Ernie- chi sao involves learning one’s control. If a student
tries to make chi sao into fighting- they go back to square one and relearn the fundamentals. People who make chi sao into fighting usually dont have a clue on what chi sao is about and need guidance.
You also will have the type that touches you during chi sau and begin to think they are all that. That same guy might tag you in chi sau but lose to you for real. Too many WC people think chi sau and fighting are the same thing.
thanks joy
and i agree , people become emotional , i don’t get it . it is just training . but perhaps that is what i will do if they act up send them back to the basics
phil
good looking out
i think there is a difference between those that have fought in the street or in the ring to those that , think chi sau is a competition,
there are so many things you can get away with in chi sau that won’t fly in a real fight .
i thank all of you for your input ,
since i’m getting put more into the teaching mode these days , i need to pick up things from all of you that have been at it a lot longer then me:)
You got good answers there.I could maybe ad that a student should know that Chi Sau is a training device and a way to develop (Or demonstrate) certain Wing Chun skills.The one who want to hit at all costs are always very easy to hit anyway.
We have a Wing Chun proverb: “Don’t be greedy; don’t be afraid.” If the student doesn’t understand this, they don’t yet understand a most fundamental premise of Wing Chun, IMHO.
For those who cannot control themselves in a learning environment, I agree 100% with those here who call for going “back to basics” until they learn how. For those who will not control themselves, I recommend showing them that the door works both ways; I’m an advocate of responsible choices over entitlements.
An alternative, as Old Jong suggests, is to let the learner experience the error of their ways. Applied in moderation, this approach can sometimes make the point succinctly. Unfortunately, it can also be quite risky for both you and/or the learner (physically, ethically, and/or legally), especially if severe or repeated lessons are required. There is also a chance unintended lessons will be reinforced.
There is always some dilemma, and perennial trade-offs to make. IMHO, it’s good to remember that your time and well-being are as valuable as theirs.
It seems to me that the real issue here has nothing to do with chi sao, or wrestling, or biting, or anything else that is physical - but rather, it is a psychological/emotional…perhaps even an ethical issue that can apply in any martial art school -
and in my experience the best way to deal with it is to make it clear, as an instructor or an assistant instuctor, that when we are “drilling”, as in chi sao, for example, don’t do crazy, highly competitive, take no prisoners things - or there will be consequences…
such as putting a big physical hurt on the “aggressor” and/or expulsion from the school.
When we spar then the story is different - you can be more aggressive (but still within certain boudaries and limits). These are the messages that every student in the school needs to receive right from day one - that a certain etiquette is expected and nothing less will be tolerated.
Ernie if this happens a little it may be the individuals. If it happens alot it may be you. By your posts it sounds like you have become the measure by which other students are judged. Others may be afraid, intimidated or psyched to chi sau with you. They may feel they have to hit you to prove they are any good etc.
2 things you can do. Slow them down and make it clear you are not going to hit them or hurt them. You are just trying to help them improve so they can be better than you. Your students should in theory always become better than you because they add their own abilities to what you have taught them. So taking efforts to calm them is first. Second just use energy to prevent them from rolling. What i call giving them the freeze. You can also force their energy to their shoulders. This will get the message through for most
I agree with KJ . Those that do not stop need to be shown the door. Some people are just wired in such a way that they will never get it.
Never hurt them unless you intend to kick them out of the school and have a good lawyerin the background. If they hit you and you retaliate by hitting them harder nothing will be gained. You will just reinforce their fears. If they hit you respond by taking total control of them without hitting them. This sends the message you can have them whenever you want them yet it shows your intent is not to hurt them.
Also dont forget even while teaching you are learning too. If you are getting hit then there is something you could learn.
so smack the bad dog in the nose with the news paper:D
here in lies two problems for me , one I am there to help not hurt them I take this real personal , I understand the psychology of a fight , never let the other persons emotions dictate how you fight so even when they go nuts ‘’ breathing hard ,eyes bulging , veins on the neck popping out ‘’ I just relax and surf the wave .
I hope by example they get it .
some do some don’t , this problem seems to come from 2 types of individuals , the ex athlete , and the martial artist that was the golden boy in another style . have you guys noticed this at all?
problem number 2 I am not allowed to hit back at all , this is a drill were we both get something , I just work my defense and position , I feed them enough energy and hands to draw out there shapes and structure , I can use destabilizing concepts like po pai . lop’s , sealing position ‘’ the freeze as hunt said ‘’
now were have 2 vertical mattresses about 15 feet apart like to padded walls , so we are in the center of this padded cell as I affectionately call it , I can project them or toss them , or drive them and lock them up .
but mind you I don’t normally turn it up I keep things were they have plenty of time to make adjustments and I talk them through the change .
since part of my training is to observe a persons strength and weakness , and character , I have really been watching how people act , and when they loose it .
I really appreciate all of you for sharing and taking your time , it’s good to see constructive energy coming from this board again
hunt
[[[Ernie if this happens a little it may be the individuals. If it happens alot it may be you. By your posts it sounds like you have become the measure by which other students are judged. Others may be afraid, intimidated or psyched to chi sau with you. They may feel they have to hit you to prove they are any good etc.]]]
it happens with they same few , but i think with one or two you might be dead on , it is usually when the teacher is watching they go all silly ,
i have seen some of these guys get in to real fights during chi sau with others , they don’t take it that far with me , but even when they got into fights i pulled them out side and explained to them that every thing is a learning experience , and pointed out how there wing chun went right out the window when they gat all emotional ,
perhaps they see me as a steping stone , it’s sad since i have never seen chi sau as a win or lose thing , it’s training not fighting .
oh well enough with my little issues at least they keep me on my toes
You just have to learn control better. When I saw Gary chisau with other Big Macs, it is like him playing with babies. They can’t hurt him! When grasshoppers realize that they can’t hurt you, they will fold their wings and start to learn other more effective ways to claw you in the chisau game. It’s the calm before the storm type! In the meantime, you just have to eat a few punches until you can totally control their position and timing. This comes mainly from understanding and experience. BTW, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ME? HA! HA!
no paul ,
you have honest pressure but never bad intent
i was inspired by specific people but i wanted to look at this type of personality in general and gain widom from others that have been at the game longer ,
you know me paul , i never lose it , it’s all fun and games to me , so can’t understand the mindset some people come with , so i’m just seeing if i can pick up a few tools and idea’s in dealing with this situation
The mindset…That reminds me of a story of a new Legionaire soldier that I read in a newspaper sometimes ago. When being asked of why he wanted to join this colorful army, he said that he enjoys fighting and killing. Some are born psychos. You just have to deal with them in the best human way you can - a sound beating to clear up their clouded animal heads! This way he realized that not all humans are preys for the killing! Ha! Ha!
My two cents… when we trained back in the old days in Macao, we were not taught/allowed Chi Sau until we reached a certain skill set and level. If we did not show that we had the right mentality, skills, control, attitude, we would not even be allowed to learn the basic Chi Sau drills, let alone the lut sau exercises. This way, only those students who qualify to be trained in Chi Sau would be able to do so, and you will minimize the possibilities of having those “hot-heads” doing Chi Sau before they are ‘ready’.
What you are dealing with is a group of people who are more interested in the ‘image’ aspect of training rather than the ‘performance’ aspect of training. They want to show you (or, more likely others in the class) how good they are, or that you, your teacher, and/or your training methods are really no good.
Don’t bother talking to them too much about it. They won’t listen. Trying to discuss something (whether via voice or via ‘the hands’) with a dummy means there are now two dummies.
So, what can you do? Not much. Just suck it up. Try to treat those who behave as you describe more like furniture. The best you can expect is to use them as a bit of a test of your own patience and current ability to reasonably deal with the unreasonable.
Hopefully, those who behave badly will eventually either get the message and mellow out or leave on their own. Unfortunately, you might be surprised at how many may stick around for years and even manage to gather a modicum of decent skill. Still, these are the people who will cause endless grief for your teacher and for other students.
If you are interested in the ‘performance’ aspect of training, try to spend more time with people interested in improving themselves and (more importantly) sharing with and helping you. That is the group that will progress consistently.
well i have different groups for different reason’s
i do like dealing with the emotional bunch , because they give raw human energy , much closer to street energy , people with something to prove .
but as you said trying to teach something to this group is a lot harder thenjust working off them for my own selfish goal:)
then there is the like mind group , the people who have something to offer in skill , or conversation , the people you really train with and meet through the week at for lunch and it turns into a training session in the parking lot , these are your brothers
this group for me comes from all different wing chun families
then there is the out of wing chun group that i am allowed to fully express myself with and train and experiment and mesure my growth .
so every one has something to offer if looked at through the right filter
training has always been easy and fun since i am very giving and a little obsessed
but teaching is a whole different world , luckily i’m not a teacher , only being groomed in that direction .
I respect and enjoy your constructive and open attitude, Ernie. There is so much to learn from every experience, and from each other. I anticipate that you will greatly enjoy the journeys ahead, and reap many rewards as you assume increasing responsibility for helping others.
