Chi sao progression question

Ok, here’s a question. Sorry if I can’t remember the Chinese words for the stuff, because I’m sick right now and thinking hurts, but here’s my question anyway. You know double handed chi sao, the kind where you’re not attacking but you’re just rolling (or whatever) your hands? Is there a correct way to progress from that to the kind where you actually are attacking?

I mean, I realize that you’re not supposed to punch or whatever until you feel a weakness in your opponents structure, but the first time is it just like “ok, let’s do it with attacks now?” When you’re just starting and you suck at feeling and detecting weaknesses, is there a definitive “right” and “wrong” way to progress?

So, in other words, would it be a decent beginning just to throw a straight punch from my right tan sao and then his appropriate response would be to convert his left fok sao into something to deflect it, for example? Or are there certain rules that apply and I couldn’t do that.

Thanks for the help,

IronFist

O.K., you’re talking the transition between poon sau and chi sao where two experienced wing chun persons are engaging? :confused:

The important thing for usual ettiquette, is that you give your partner a sign that you are warmed up and you’re ready to engage in chi sao.

Ways to signal the transition from not hitting (poon sau) to hitting (chi sao):

  1. Hit your partner

  2. Just tell him or her, “let’s chi sao.”

  3. Instead of just poon sau rolling, start using different hands, resisting the rhythm of poon sau, creating openings and opportunities for both of you

iron

Go back to the dan chi sao and figure it out!!!

Iron,

TWC has a variety of patterns which “grow” out of rolling, with canned attacks and responses, the same as with one arm chi sau, e.g. out of rolling, A strikes low with his bon/tan arm, B jut sau’s the low strike with his fuk sau arm then punches to the face, which A deflects with a tan sau with the bon/tan arm, then bothe return to rolling. We also have basic larp sau and garn sau attacks with both the tan and fuk arms, pak/tsuen attacks, etc.

William Cheung’s “Advanced Wing Chun” has a number of these example techs detailed. Not saying that other lineages may not have equally suitable, even better, refererences, these is just one resource I have seen which is satisfactory.

While at the highest level chi sau should be flowing to suit the ever changing relationship of the protagonists, most students benefit by starting with concrete examples of responses which incorporate sound WC principles and strategy.

Yeah, it’s only common courtesy to give some sort of verbal signal that you’re about to start trying to pummel your partner after rolling. If you’re sensible, you’ll also have a mouthguard in before considering it.

Well, I assumed we would have established verbally that we were going to attack before we began :slight_smile:

Anerlich, so in the beginning it IS set patterns and stuff? And the totally free-flowing stuff where you don’t know what your opponent is going to do doesn’t come until later?

:confused:

IronFist

Well, yeah. I mean, that’s the philosophy with most things. Like you learn to punch and deal with punches and kicks in a predetermined pattern before you go out and spar.

If you’re up to learning rolling (probably a bad idea before you can manage one arm chi sao competently), you’ve probably found like most, me included, that you feel unco as hell the first time. Better to gain some familiarity and confidence with dealing with less random attacks, keeping your structure intact, rather than just flailing wildly with no real tools or strategies to use. You’re probably only looking at a few hours of these drills before you start going for random, though sensible people IMHO would still go back and review the drills regularly no matter how experienced they get.

try this-although we first practice stepping back at 45 degree angles from rolling then foward at 45 before we even start to learn chi sao. i will go straight to chi sao because stepping practice is a b!tch & just way to difficult try and explain without being there or having had exposure to the way it is taught in the wong lineage.(if you wish to know more about stepping you may want to do a search for david peterson articles as i am sure he has written some good stuff on stepping at angles)
first defence-attacker tries to trap down over your bong whilst rolling---- you counter by applying bong from your fook hand and your original bong arm now moves to wu------roll & do it again.
first attack- whilst rolling use your fook hand to trap their bong in a forward & downward motion, whilst your other hand moves to a punching positon.
that’s it. go straight back to rolling.
you generally learn the defence before the attack but in your case
it’s up to you what you decide to do.
at first don’t worry about having to feel, just concentrate on doing the movements with good form. feel comes later. don’t try to fight, just again concentrate on good relaxed form.go straight back to rolling without fighting in to the next movements as you aren’t chi saoing yet.
i would also suggest you do this at a snails pace to get these movements correct & ever so slowly pick up the pace.
there is much more even to this simple drill but if you have a partner to try it with & have any questions just ask.
the second defence will only be taught you in at least a months time when you have shown me with your diligent literary skills that you have grasped your lesson for today;) :smiley:
vts

sorry anerlich i didn’t mean to cut in over the top of you with our drills that lead you into chi sao but i was typing and watching footy at the same time, which meant it took a while esp. seeing as though it was newcastle playing.
the funny thing is i suppose that if he gets different drills from all the lineages he may get confused with information overload.
anyhowz, have fun iron.
vts

As vts alluded in his informative post, the biggest error many beginner chi sauer’s make is rolling too fast. As vts says, concentrate on your form and structure above all, chi sau is highly structure dependent, if your structure is off the whole thing falls apart. If you can’t do it slow, you sure as hell won’t be able to do it fast. And try and RELAX. That’s why your seniors can do it for ages loner than you and not tire while your shoulders are burning, not because they’ve developed awesome endurance, but because they’ve learned to lose the unnecessary muscular tension.

vts, no sweat man, good drills. I’d prefer to get deluged with info and get confused rather than have people tell me I’m not ready for it yet.

Hey Iron

In vts’ post he started talking about footwork. Stepping is fine but i strongly recommend you remain stationary for now and train that horse stance. Stepping back is fine when you need to but try and stay in ygkym for now as a beginner. This is where you will train the strong stance or “root”. When under attack by your partner you will use the shift instead of running backwards!!!

Try having your partner push/pull you around a bit to help develop the stance, you got lots of time later to add in the super sweet fancy footwork!!!:slight_smile:

p.s. Did you try the egg thingy yet???

this

If you and your partner just lob punches at each other, you are wasting your time. Chi sau is all about traps and finding the holes, not throwing ridiculous punches that anyone can land.

Re: this

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
If you and your partner just lob punches at each other, you are wasting your time. Chi sau is all about traps and finding the holes, not throwing ridiculous punches that anyone can land.

What is chisau trap? and what makes a punch rediculous?

^o^/
mthandz

Ironfist,

The progression in Chi Sao is parallel to the progression through the system - we start out stationary, like Siu Nim Tao, and progress as we experiment with different movements, like Chum Kiu and Bil Je, noting that the progression builds off of the previous experiences. When two people engage in Chi Sao, there are two egos involved so the urge to see who is “better” is present. One must focus on what you are training. The most difficult, but most beneficial way to train is to be cooperative and slow things down so you can “see” what is going on and discuss it. However, this must be looked at as a phase of short duration for different concepts. Can you practice one movement consistently, and that’s all you do for about a month straight? Once you have all the ideas and physical movements understood during that period, let it go and move on.

Chi Sao begins at Don Chi Sao. There is a lot to study there. Then move on to Luk Sao (rolling hands - understanding position), Jip Sao (catching hands - learning to maintain position when nothing is there), jao sao (running hands) and then Toi Mah (push horse - movement while rolling and maintaining the horse). One should “graduate” to Chi Sao when you have some sense of understanding these phases.

Chi Sao is an exercise that is not meant to be used for fighting. However, aside from being a “laboratory”, Chi Sao is a method of testing your skills. It is often recommended that you have a phase of having equal or senior level students “feed you the hands” first, so you can learn some basic movements such as lop sao, poi jong, and tan dar (trapping type movements). Then, for a more realistic feel use the Sidai (who can just roll) for you to honestly evaluate ideas. The final goal would be to play a higher level person with some confidence in your own ability.

A student should at the very least have some control over protecting their centerline with solid positioning before starting to hit. However, you should have a phase of training where you “let the hands go” checking distance to your partner and studying the consequences. This is where you can study martial attributes such as timing and relaxation.

Finally, you should think of your strikes as being supported by your body, not just “hits”. This is supported by what we call “phon sao”, or followup technique.

From the Kun Kuit - “Hit when you can; Do not hit when you can’t”.

Good luck in your Kung Fu

Lindley57

The quality of your post is superior. Thank you for your thoughtful and refreshing contribution to this forum.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo