Chen Hsiao Wang-Taiji master

[bamboo_leaf]

“The story I heard is the CMC diluted the YCF form a lot more so it is a lot more health oriented. The reason was that people were concentrating the fighting aspects of it too much, that they didn’t focus on developing internal jin. So he said to screw with fighting applications now, lets focus on getting our jin developed with his form. That’s the story I heard”

I don’t know about more health oriented since I feel that most TC styles practiced will tend to improve ones heath if not done to the extreme.

My own back ground is was with the TC style taught by the Tung family ( yang 108) also some short fast sets developed by them. This is before coming into the CMC style many yrs ago.

I prefer the CMC style and ideas.. works makes sense to me.

My belief at this time runs a little counter to the popular belief that things where made easier. Actually I think he made it harder by really insisting on focusing on what he perceived to be the essences of TC.

The confusion and I think this happens with many TC styles is what people see is not always how it is done.

Every one talks of the founding Chen style, and how every thing seems to be a dilution of the idea from there, what if it was the other way around and all the other styles are improvements or maybe a more direct reflection of what some have found.

What looks simple is not so simple.

sorry if this is off the main topic just found it intersting

[Tainan_Mantis]

Cheng Manching in Tainan

At schools of his style that are, or seem to be, more traditional, little time is devoted to the form itself. Maybe one or two run throughs then 2 hrs of push hands.

I know that some of the teachers of this style have made it into what we westerners would call new age. These classes try to make the form look good and don’t do much push hands. Usually they are going for a crowd of middle age ladies in which push hands, or at least the way they do it here, is not suitable.

The taiji teachers and students do seem slightly arrogant and are very open to challenges, one of which I saw.

The teacher touched hands with some guy who said he wanted to be a student. They tussled for about 10 seconds and the teacher jumped out.

The tuff guy and he was big too, jumps to the middle of the class and proclaims his kung fu superior. Who dare to try?
One guy on the sidelines takes a run like he is going to do a tackle ala American style and gets thrown a frightenly far distance. This happens 3 times.

“Who else wants to try? I am invincible!”
Meanwhile I’m hiding behind the ladies debating if I should fight or not.
The ladies proclaim this fighting looks like bulls and is not soft and tender like taichi, so it is over.

Strangely enuf, the teacher goes back to teaching the class.

I go back there a little earlier for the next class and sure enuf the guy is there waiting specifically for me.

“Lets do push hands.” He says.

“I only know praying mantis push hands.”

I punched him 11 times in about 7 seconds(I counted) and then said “Whew, I’m tired, let’s rest.”

That was the end.

Most of the Taiji guys who liked to fight are old now and the new generation is more concerned with education.

[bamboo_leaf]

Thanks for the info, when I was in Taiwan didn’t get a chance to see much TC to busy with work.

Sounds like you had a good time, had to show some things to a hung gar guy in Singapore once (a kind of what if), I used mantis too, but my mantis was based on my TC. Now I don’t play the mantis.

Interesting in Thailand there is a lot of TC there, most of the teachers where from mainland China or HK. The teachers wouldn’t take it to kindly to some one coming and interrupting their class.

[RAF]

Bamboo Leaf:

A little off the path but here are two schools of thought I ran into:

Jou Tsung Hwa view: Taiji must go from form to formless, outdide to inside. Chen ==> Yang ==> Wu (hao). Sun style not really true taiji and Wu style simply a variation on the Yang style. So Yang is advanced and Wu (hao) is more advanced. 1990s view. IMHO this started a more mystical bend, akin or congruent with “New Age”.

Other view: Yang style as publicly practiced and taught is incomplete. It was derived from and is the Chen style system. The pao tui side is lost but is often seen as single moving postures and exercises. Yang Shen Dou (sp?) stated on his website that they do indeed practice single moving fajing exercises. He also states that the 13 posture spear is practiced and used for developing fajing which is consistent with what I know about Chen and baji system. It might also be true about the Wu style. Fu Zhong Wen’s son also does this and in Jou Tsung Hwa’s 1980s days his students taught this from day one. The Magic Tortoise school, Jou Tsung Hwa, also teaches long pole or staff exercises.

My own Chen’s practices starts out with a 32 linking form that is played entirely without fajing and in relatively the same tempo as the Yang style. As my teacher said it is moving stance work and designed to build structure and the sinking jing along with flexibility.

Initially I was in the camp of the first perspective but as I see more and more Northern system’s basic training, the latter perspective seems more likely (this has been going on since 1984).

How does this square with what you know of the CMC system? I know that Ben Lo holds taiji postures which is consistent with the but maybe not exclusive of the second position. I also know that CMC knew the spear. He offered to teach it to Ben Lo (in JAMA interview) but Ben Lo refused, stating that it was too much to master along with the sword and form. There is no spear form in Yang system—spear is single movement training, consistent with Northern system of basic training.

Also know that original dao form of Yang taiji is not a form but basic single moving training (form, like the spear forms, were developed later, probably for demonstration purposes).

Aside from CC Chen’s performance at the Taste of China, I have never seen CMC sword form nor its basic training. In my own sword form, we spend a lot of time doing static training exercises and two man circuling exercises which remind me of pushing hands. We also do two man static training. Our form also has a B side and its 2nd level adds fajing exercises.

You seem to know the depths of CMC system, any comment?

[bamboo_leaf]

T-mantis,

sorry for the far path from the org post.

“You seem to know the depths of CMC system, any comment?”

Can’t really lay any great claim to having a deep insight to this system but I can say that for me it approaches many things very directly.

have worked out in Bens classes, had a very long post on this.
after reading it didn’t seem like i had anything to say worth reading.

david