Finally, as for how Sifu Chan’s students did in competition
http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/tournament.jpg
This pic is from the first time we went to the NACMAF event, an all Chinese national event where the judges were all famous SIFU
We won over 15 trophies, in forms, weapons and sparring…
Proper decorum
I’m sorry that my annoyance bothers you, but I forget that some people on this forum may not have been raised following proper etiquette in the Chinese martial arts. Back in the day information like these stories that are told on line were not available to us. Alot has changed in the past 30 years. When we all younger, me and my training brothers were very eager to hear any stories about great masters. I definitaly never questioned a respected sifu when he shared some interesting stories about his Master. I definately never demanded to see any proof that would be disrespectful. Not to say that I didn’t my own research, I simply did it in a way that wasn’t rood. I just simply confirmed my stories by asking around. As far as calming down I dont know what you meant by that, I wasn’t angry when I replied to yor post. I just wanted to know who you are to ask of such things in such a demanding manner. You catch more bees with honey. The point I’m making is that if you dont ask me in a nice way why should share anything with you. I’ts no skin off my teeth if you dont want to believe respected masters stories. Most of the stories that I herd about Chan tai san I herd from total strangers that had nothing to gain by telling these stories. I never asked for proof. Over a period of time I herd the same stories over and over again from sifu’s and laymen. If have a chance go to N.Y. China town and ask any waiter waitress or shop story hey can you tell me a story about the great Chan Tai san? Make sure you have a translator , some time, and don’t forget the popcorn. I usually take my students to china town and it’s a treat for them because they get to eat Dim sum and hear great tales about their Si Gung. I remember when we went to san fran for the first time. As we walked the streets of china town people were coming up to CTS and were lining up just to shake his hand. I remember lookin at dave and saying that’s pretty weird everyone knows him what’s he the former mayor os san fran or something. Then it hit me that my Sifu was not just the average bear. As we made our way to go visit Sifu Brendan lai’s Martial art supply one of the largest martial art supplie stores at the time. Brendan li got rest his soul, he was agreat master in his own right, he was amazed that Cts was in he store. he aproached us and asked us for an intoduction. He went on to explain that the reason he was so excited was that he had no Idea that sifu Chan was for real. He continued to explain to us that according to the stories he herd about CTS he might of well have been a super hero. According to Sifu Brendan Lai he was sure that sifu was just a legend. The storie once again spilled out of Sifu Lai. I’m trying to make this short but no CTS storie is short. After some conversation Sifu Lai asked Cts to head up his kung fu org. ran up a hill in his three peace suit to get Cts some water and let us take as many weapons from his store as we can carry for free. It wasnt till that san fran trip that I raelized my Sifu was a diamond in the roughf. As far as getting proof about these stories I can’t they are just stories told by many. In the comming future me and my training brothers will try to compile more info about him. Much of that stuff is on video wich is hard to share on line. But ask nicely and say please with sugar on top and maybee you might see something cool. Untill then I guess youre just going to have to listen to these threads. Do you know how small the Chines martial arts comunity is??? if you make something up some one will call you on it so believe you me this stuff is true. 
Green Cloud,
I appreciate your last post very much. It seems to come from the heart and you are the only one (of CTS’s students) who tried to educate without insulting or talking down. You truly used your own advice "You catch more bees with honey. " and your points are well taken.
“As far as calming down I dont know what you meant by that, I wasn’t angry when I replied to yor post.”
Sorry, it sounded like you were angry and it wasn’t the result that I wanted.
10 people will interpret a post 10 different ways. Even if my post was re-read by me and worded like a legal document, misinterpretations will still occur. In the end, it was just a query. Chris, If you think I have some hidden agenda you are wrong. You could just have just asked me what I really think. Using a post to interpret my post was, in my opinion a waste of time.
If this thread is deleted save Green Cloud’s post as an example of impecable character and maturity. Most people saw me as an insult and wanted to dismiss (delete) me. He actually showed that he cares enough about his teacher to try to bring me closer to him (and his teachers legacy) and help me. Thank you again.
Here’s a good one, major article on the NACMAF national competition from Nov 1992 IKF magazine… not only was Sifu Chan one of the feature demonstrators, the magazie ran his pic as the lead… I guess because he was no one and had no accomplishments :rolleyes:
(insert sarcasm here)
Burried in stuff he can’t dispte, he retreats… how about just an apology for making a post without bothering to do any fact checking on your own?
Dave,
Your various pictures of Chan Tai San no doubt show that he had many friends and aquaintances in the kung fu world. No doubt he had much respect as a great master of kung fu. You would expect that he would have many pictures from his many years in the kung fu community. (as does my own Sifu, albums and albums of them, in fact.)
That, however, does nothing to answer what Anthony was asking for. Proof of Chan Tai San’s accomplishments as stated in the various threads about him. “Proof” would take the form of independent 3rd party accounts of what happened regarding Chan Tai San.
Rumor within the Chinese community cannot be taken as any kind of conclusive evidence. If you repeat something enough times it can “become” the truth. But that doesn’t mean that it actually went down.
If you have access to this 3rd party information, in Chinese or otherwise, then please post it. I have access to translation, it’s really no problem to translate.
If not, then we can only take these non-verified accounts as “historical fiction” (as I contended in another post). Perhaps based on some events that really went down but changed and embellished over the years as they went through the grapevine.
In addition, if you expect that others take your stories as “proof” then I would ask that you grant others as much leeway in their accounts of various masters and historical figures. You can’t ask that we blindly except your stories about Chan Tai San and at the same time cut down other people’s stories based on more stringent standard of proof.
I really have no interest in this matter accept to promote a more logical and consistent discourse on this forum. And I can’t stand hypocrisy.
Fu-Pow, I’m sure they have a public library even in your god forsaken neck of the woods, go and look up the NY Daily News or NY Newsweek from 1982… Use either “Chan Tai San” or “Chen Rui Tai” and the articles will pop up… I’m not at the library at this moment and if you really are curious it won’t take you more than 15 minutes to find
Ask your sifu about the Toi San District, Canton (Guangdong province) annual almanac… it is a well known over seas publication (ie for Chinese living in America)… get the issue for 1950 and you’ll see CTS took third in the provincical free sparring competition that year. Behind Lei Fei San and the Hsing Yi guy. Sifu had a copy of it, but he passed away and I don’t have all his possessions. But if you really are curious
You might also want to consider, are all these famous Sifu lying? Is that your story? Most of the stories we posted came to us from the likes of Lee Koon Hung (love to see you call him a liar!), Chan Poi, Wai Hong, Tai Yim, YC Wong, etc…
Contact the Hong Luk in Toronto and ask them how CTS was recieved when he returned to China.
The Chinese government put CTS in a movie called “China’s Living Treasures”. It sold in major Chinatowns in the US for years… ask Carl Albright on the Mantis forum because I know for a fact he has a copy
If he wasn’t an accomplished martial artist, how did he get appointed coach of the Canton wushu team? want a source, ask Bow Sim Mak.
Why did the KMT lodge in NY hold a banquet in CTS’ honor? Just fer fun :rolleyes:
You obviously would like to believe these stories aren’t true, because it would make you feel better… but there are plenty of independent sources. You’re burying your head in the sand here…
FP,
I think your logic is faulty. There aren’t that many degrees of separation.
If a person witnessed this first hand, then its tesimony not hearsay. What these guys witnessed their Teacher do is not anecdotal. Its not 5 generations later. And all those poeple who witnessed his doing in china fall under the same category.
As far as DR’s teachers recounting of his life to Dave and company, thats also testimony.
These aren’t wuxia ledgends of a thousand years ago.
Yeah, I think they have a library somewhere “out here.”
Anyways, I don’t really care either way, but perhaps Anthony would interested to do so.
You might also want to consider, are all these famous Sifu lying? Is that your story? Most of the stories we posted came to us from the likes of Lee Koon Hung (love to see you call him a liar!), Chan Poi, Wai Hong, Tai Yim, YC Wong, etc…
Contact the Hong Luk in Toronto and ask them how CTS was recieved when he returned to China.
I would really prefer that you not bring any people in my lineage into your arguments, including Lee Koon Hung or Tat Mau Wong. However, I think I already addressed the fact that just because a lot of people say it. Doesn’t mean its true. Not that to say that it is their intention to lie but people often repeat things because they are “common knowledge.” If you know how to manipulate that system then people will believe all kinds of things about you. Not saying that CTS did but how do we, the uninitiated, know that?
The Chinese government put CTS in a movie called “China’s Living Treasures”. It sold in major Chinatowns in the US for years… ask Carl Albright on the Mantis forum because I know for a fact he has a copy
If he wasn’t an accomplished martial artist, how did he get appointed coach of the Canton wushu team? want a source, ask Bow Sim Mak.
There you go Anthony.
Why did the KMT lodge in NY hold a banquet in CTS’ honor? Just fer fun :rolleyes:
You obviously would like to believe these stories aren’t true, because it would make you feel better… but there are plenty of independent sources. You’re burying your head in the sand here…
Actually, my feeling don’t have a whole lot to do with it. I only have an interest in what Immanuel Kant called, The Beautiful, The Good and The True. “Beautiful” stories make a good read but we should not mistake them for “The Truth.” And one should be able to discern what is Beautiful from what is True, because even a lie can be a beautiful lie at that.
Peace
I see your point. However, the fault in YOUR logic is that I never equated wuxia legends with first person accounts. Your trying to set up a “straw man” argument that I never made so that you can knock it down.
My point is that subjective recollection and opinion is only a piece of the puzzle in historical interpretation. If you ask that we take your recollection or opinion as fact then you must grant others the same leeway…or be a hypocrit.
Where you all seem to fail to realize is that regadless of the stories coming from Chan Tai San’s disciples, The Man is no longer with us to take the time and interview him ourselves, so the next best thing when it comes to learning about a certain teacher is to go to his friends and students.
If Chan Tai San’s students want to say he built the brooklyn bridge himself, it is up to them to spread that story. The only thing WE have to do is believe it or not believe it. who are we to ever dispute passed Master’s backgrounds.
I haven’t heard the chan tai san clan saying that their gung fu was better than anyones, or chan tai san was the only real deal, or the only gung fu teacher who knew how to use it. What i have seen is they are so proud of Chan Tai San they exclude others, but that comes with the territory.
My only problem is that people are attempting to dishonor his name by questioning if he was this or that. I believe it is because we are all so very proud of our own lineages that we cannot see the greatness of anothers. But i have stepped back and said to myself although i’d never really heard of him in my lifetime, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve the chance to have his story told.
what they should do is try not to force it on others because naturally the proud will resist and raise questions, but for those who wish to learn about a great sifu, just make it available to them, much to the way Dave keeps referring me to the thread when i have my own questions about his sifu.
ok, gotta go to chinatown now, peace
hsk
Is to question something/someone, to dishonor it/them? I’m not making the logical connection, (which is why I believe we have butted heads in past over historical issues, Frank).
As Siddharta Gautama said (and you can choose to believe this whether you are buddhist or not)
“Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience. Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
–The Buddha
Peace.
Siddharta
Fu Pow thanks for sharing that saying, I havent been reading up lately on the teachings of siddharta. But is you were the buda youd have to questin that saying also. All I’m saying is that you are over intelectualizing these stories about CTS. In the past I’ve discussed ethics and it has always been my understanding that most Martial Artist’s are ethical people espesialy Kung Fu people. So what is the problem are you calling all these sifu’s liars. Here is the problem with over intelectualizing something, by the time you figure at how to intercept a lap choi with a chop choi youve already been hit. As far as I’m concerned if you can’t trust an entire comunity of Sifu’s than why should they trust you?? What master wants to teach a student who constantly qusetions his master. Thats just time consuming. Why ask the question in the first place if youre going to question the answere.
I know my spelling sucks
It’s not that my spelling sucks but really my typing since I usualy type in the dark. Hey what can I say I’d turn the lights on but have you seen the gas prices lately. I got to conserve somehow. Hey frank I think your right on the money. Thanks
coach ross
I read chinese, can you get mr parella to put up some of those chinese articles? or email it to me? htowndragon@gmail.com
thanks! 3Q
Good point. It’s not to say that there is no truth. Only that we should question that what is truth and what is not.
All I’m saying is that you are over intelectualizing these stories about CTS. In the past I’ve discussed ethics and it has always been my understanding that most Martial Artist’s are ethical people espesialy Kung Fu people.
That’s pretty laughable and, ironically, wasn’t it your SiHing Dave who just spent his valuable time explaining how martial artists were mostly drunks, gamblers, charlatans, vagabonds, hustlers, etc.
Also
argumentum ad populum – This fallacy occurs when an argument panders to popular passion or sentiment. When, for instance, a politician exclaims in a debate that his opponent “is out of step with the beliefs of everyone in the audience,” he/she is committing the fallacy. The legitimacy of a statement depends not on its popularity, but on its truth credentials.
So what is the problem are you calling all these sifu’s liars.
No, but I think you guys are trying to make it sound like that’s what I’m saying, especially as it relates to people in my own lineage (ie Lee Koon Hung and Tat Mau Wong). You can tell a lie without ever INTENDING to tell a lie…that is, inadvertently. There’s a big difference.
Here is the problem with over intelectualizing something, by the time you figure at how to intercept a lap choi with a chop choi youve already been hit.
Well, you’re talking about history vs. kung fu and one is an intellectual pursuit and the other is a kinesthetic pursuit so your analogy doesn’t really hold up.
As far as I’m concerned if you can’t trust an entire comunity of Sifu’s than why should they trust you??
Huh?
non sequitur (“it does not follow”) – A statement that does not logically follow from what preceded it; a conclusion that does not follow from the premises.
What master wants to teach a student who constantly qusetions his master. Thats just time consuming. Why ask the question in the first place if youre going to question the answere.
Again, it seems like your saying that learning history and learning kung fu are the same thing. I’d never question my master’s understanding of kung fu because I’ve seen it, felt it , touched it, tasted it (ok, not really tasted it.) But as far as history goes I DO question him. He’s a kung fu master after all, not a saint, not a sage or, for that matter, a professor of history
Once again, I don’t really care if CTS or you or Dave is or isn’t telling the truth. I’m trying to help out the starter of this thread whose questions have been evaded.
PEACE.
Captain Kirk
Fu Pow you know that you sound kind of like a robot. Danger will robinson that does not compute thats ilogical. I’m a little confused what do you do for a living are you a historian. Who is your teacher?? just curious is it lee kwoon hung or tat ma wong??
Chop Choi
Fu pow If you look at a cop choi it’s exactly the opposite of a lap choi. Both tec. are the same in a parallel universe. Ahh is that an intellectual persuite or a kinesthetic persuit?? I just figured out how to talk to you in sudo. Wow it almost sounds like I know what I’m talking about. By the way how are those stances comming along. In that form are ya being intel or kinest. Comom Fu Pow how is someone supposed have a conversation with you when you use that sudo intelectual garbage. Whats the name of that form please dont tell it’s the moifa kune. I’m just kiding with ya figured I’d just mess with ya for a bit.
Pasive agressive
Fu poop by the way I’m not stupid. In youre sudo intel. bull you subtuly imply that Ross is my Si Hing. Infact he is my hing dai we were both bi seed at the same time. I have a question have you learned how to fight using your choy lee fut tecq. or do sit around and trying to figure out what intel. or kin. ??
The stage is so small
Someone help me but I can’t stop watching Fu pow’s form. Is it that the stage is so small, is that why he is moving so slowly??? You know plum flower is not supposed to be flowery. The plum flower is a strong tancious flower that grows and blosoms even in the snow. Or are you doing that lady style stuf?? I just have to ask if you are so inqisitive than how come you havent asked your teacher why your stance work is so week. But realy dont mind me I’m just being serious.