Chan Tai San stories

More Chan Tai San stuff…

In his late 50’s, Chan Tai-San decided to move to the United States and to establish his own school. He first went to Canada, where friends of his put him up and helped him find students. He taught a lot of guys out of a particular system, which was a combination of Choy Lay Fut and White Crane. They had similar traininig, so it was easy for Sifu Chan to teach them. However, it appears that Sifu Chan also considered two factors

First, they were not HIS students, their loyalty was to their original teacher.

Second, Sifu Chan knew he was eventually going to the US, these students were temporary.

Often, guys from Canada would come down to visit us, we would ask them what they’d learned from Sifu, they’d show us the forms. The first thing we noticed, they had neither the traditional openings nor closing to the Lama forms…

When I asked sifu Chan WHY, he said exactly what I am relaying to you, so people “in the know” would know they weren’t “in the door”…

In New York, Chan Tai-San first taught in a number of local schools, with similar things going on. I’d meet people who’d learned with him, and they show stuff, it was altered… As sifu would say, “they didn’t know, they’d never know”

I actually found this to be a rather common Chinese attitude. I visited a teacher who was very good friends of my Sifu. I noticed that his students were all doing footwork which was WRONG. So I asked the sifu, if maybe I was mistaken???

“Oh no, you’re right, that footwork is wrong. But only you and I know that, they’ll never know that”

I trained with Sifu in the Chan Family Association on Bayard Street, where Chan Tai- San had been appointed lion dancing and kung-fu instructor. These classes were always different from the stuff Sifu would do outside, for example when hired to teach in another school. A prime example, some claimed Sifu Chan didn’t remember his forms.

In reality, he didn’t remember the altered forms he showed those “outside the door” but if I screwed up a set that he’d shown me 5 years earlier, he’d scream and show me the correct way. A few times Steve Ventura and I purposely screwed up to see what would happen. Always the same, if you got the “A version”, Sifu Chan could correct you for the rest of your life…

The classes remained rather small for a number of reasons. First, Chan Tai-San only spoke Cantonese dialect and had trouble communicating. Second, he was no longer a young man and disliked having to demonstrate the more difficult techniques. If there were tornado kicks, butterfly, spin ups, rolls, etc, teh seniors had to do it. When teaching the seniors, sifu chan frequently resorted to hand motion to indicate these techniques.

Since Chan Tai-San lived in the association hall, there was no set class time. Students could come and leave when they wanted.

When I first started training, Sifu insisted we train the following basics, single techniques across the floor of the gym. The basics included;

  1. Kahp Choih (stamping strike)
  2. Paau Choih (long uppercut)
  3. Chyuhn Choih (straight punch)
  4. Tau Bouh Seung Gwa (steal step twin backfist)
    Mah Sik Pak Yik (spin into horse stance crane wing strike)
  5. Tau Bouh Bin Choih (steal step whip strike)
    Mah Sik So Choih (spin into inward swing strike)
    Gung Sik Jong Choih (bow stance forearm strike)
  6. A combination of Kahp Choih, Paau Choih and Chyuhn Choih.

Despite the fact that Lama Pai has a wide variety of kicking techniques, they were never practiced as basics.

Originally posted by SaekSan
[B]You should refer people to this thread next time they accuse you of hurting their feelings… Then they can see where you’re coming from.

:smiley: [/B]

ya think? :smiley:

One of the greatest Chan Tai San stories EVER!

The very first time we went to one of Sifu Tai Yim’s events, Sifu Chan is doing his Chi Kung demo. As usual I am translating his comments into English. So you have

Chan Tai San: I am very happy to be here as Sifu Tai Yim’s event

Me; translate into English

Chan: I knew him when he was a little boy, I was friends with his teacher and studied with his si-gung

Me; translate into English

Chan: Tai Yim’s Si Gung, the “white haired devil” was very famous

Me: translate into English

Chan: for killing a lot of guys

Me: SILENT (I aint no dummy)

Sifu Chan continued about how the White Haired Devil had killed so many people that their families hired men to go and kill him. I am no dummy, I am not translating this! So on he goes.

The Chinese are dying laughing! The Americans are asking me why I’m not translating. I’m just standing there, hoping he’ll change topics. Of course, Sifu Chan continues

Sifu Chan talks about how a bunch of these hired killers surrounded the place White Haired Devil was having tea in, White Haired Devil breaks off the legs of the table that he’s eating at, goes outside to beat them to death

I’m not touching it!

Sifu Yim, realizing that the lack of translation is a bad thing, tries to ad lib…

Sifu Tai Yim: “Master Chan is happy to be here. He says that kung fu is excellent for everyone, an excellent way to get healthy”

Only problem, while sifu is talking, he’s mimicing the blood and mayhem with his hands. His body language is anything but about “health and spiritual development”

The Chinese in attendance are dying laughing…

Sifu Tai Yim keeps trying to ad libb

Sifu Chan is mimicing White Haired Devil choking to death the last guy

I’m just standing there…

Sifu Chan “and that’s how White Haired Devil beat six guys to death with table legs”

I jump right in “and now Sifu Chan will do his next Chi Gung demonstration”

I honestly though Tai Yim was gonna kill me :smiley:

Originally posted by lkfmdc
… Sifu Chan knew he was eventually going to the US, these students were temporary.

When I asked sifu Chan WHY, he said exactly what I am relaying to you, so people “in the know” would know they weren’t “in the door”…

I actually found this to be a rather common Chinese attitude.

I now feel I better understand your ‘rants’.

I agree w/SaekSan, you should refer people who’s ‘feelings have been hurt’ to this thread. Good stuff. I won’t pretend that I’m not exactly impressed by the basic moral character depicted, but what’s great is that it feels very real, very human and explains quite a bit about the views you’ve expressed in this forum.

Thanks, and I look forward to reading more…

PS. I also vote for a Bio, this is very much the kind of thing I’d love to read, and apparently quite a few other folk would as well.

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I honestly though Tai Yim was gonna kill me :smiley:

THAT is HILARIOUS!!!

More!!More!!More!!

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
[B]

I won’t pretend that I’m not exactly impressed by the basic moral character depicted,

[/B]

Reality isn’t always pretty, in fact, most of the time it is downright ugly…

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Reality isn’t always pretty, in fact, most of the time it is downright ugly…

Agreed, which is why I’m really enjoying this and hope you continue, or better yet, put together a bio. Feels very real and doesn’t try to hide the ugly behind a PC facade.

Ohman, I remember sitting at the 96’ Jeff Bolt thing, and your teacher was talking about Henry Poo Yee..the South Mantis guy. The person translated said something about, “I knew his teacher.” then stopped translating… but Wai Lun Choi was sitting next to me and was busting up laughing… but he never tell mec what was said…

What a riot. Keep going Ross…

Thanks Ross, good stuff..

My sifu frequently shared stories in public that in American society would be taboo…

I remember one dinner where he asked another famous sifu if his wife had found out yet about his 16 year old mistress… the whole table just looked down at their dishes

NO, aint gonna tell you who that was :smiley: :eek: :smiley: :eek:

Sifu Chan is mimicing White Haired Devil choking to death the last guy

“Kung fu is good for your health.”

lol

oh man sifu ross.

I am enjoying these stories tremendously. better then the ones i hear of sigong fu.

Life as an orphan in a monastery…

Sifu Chan was only one of many young boys that the temple took in. I think it was a group of like 12 but I don’t remember exactly. Sifu many years ago had an old picture of the group when they were teenagers…

All took “manastic names” even though they didn’t all take final vows and become monks. All were “san” or “mountain” names. Lei Fei San was the #1, a very good friend of my sifu. He is still alive and well in Canton, he has over 1000 students there.

Chiu Wan San was in Chicago, I don’t know if he is still there or even alive, sadly.

Oh, actually, as I type this, there was another student who was #1 before Lei Fei San, but he disgraced Jyu Chyuhn and the temple and was kicked out… no one really knows what became of him…

My sifu’s relationship with his teacher was, like my relationship with Chan Tai San, COMPLICATED. Jyu Chyuhn was a strict discipliner, a harsh teacher. In some respects the kids hated him…

In other ways, he was their father, the only father figure they ever knew. He raised them, fed the, healed them…

All the kids were taught Choy Lay Fut and that meant harsh stance training at the beginning. All morning holding stanced, jumping up and down with sand weights attached to their ankles. Duck walks, squats, etc…

The first big formal test we arranged at the Mineola school, the seniors wanted the students to hold stances (Steve Ventura and myself came from Hung Ga with strong stance tradition, Gus Kapros also wanted to see strong stances…)

When it came to the students holding the stances, legs shaking, sweat pouring off, Sifu Chan LEFT THE BUILDING, he went downstairs and had a cigarette. He told me that while he knew it was necessary, he never wanted to see that ever again, it reminded him of those days…

The kids hated Jyu Chyuhn for making them do stances and training so hard, and because he made them study and was harsh. So, like “lord of the flies” they often fell back on their worst animal instincts… Sifu Chan told me they literally tried to kill Jyu Chyuhn a few times!!!

Head to head, young kids vs a master was a no brainer. The beatings commenced to quote Bill Cosby :smiley:

Lei Fei San and Chan Tai San decided to “plot” better ways to kill. One day they waited for Jyu Chyuhn to meditate. He meditated every day in front of the main altar. Chan Tai San stole a knife and waited for him to meditate. He waited until he thought Jyu Chyuhn was deep in meditation and jumped up on the altar..

Jyu Chyuhn simply took off his shoe and slapped Chan Tai San in the face! He had been aware he was hiding the entire time.

As an indication of how complicated and conflicted the relationship was, Sifu Chan told me this story crying, “and that’s how we tried to kill him, I miss Sifu” he cried. Sifu Chan really loved Jyu Chyuhn, even with these strange behaviors…

The climax of this difficult and conflicted relationship came when Chan Tai San was an adult…

At 17, in 1937, the Japanese had invaded China. Chan Tai San left the temple to join the resistance to the invasion, joining the KMT’s special “peasants’ division”

At this time, Chan Tai San had NOT yet learned Lama Pai. Jyu Chyuhn felt he had been too immature and wild to learn the method. He had only studied Choy Lay Fut.

In the “peasants’ division” however, Chan Tai San was in the company of many kung fu master (White Haired Devil for example) and since they were all in the same cause of fighting the Japanese, they shared techniques, a first for Chinese martial artists who had before all been in their sects fighting eachother

after years of fighting the Japanese and after having learned other methods of Kung Fu from his fellow soldiers, Chan TAI San returned home…

Sifu Chan thought he was a man, and he wanted Jyu Chyuhn to teach him Lama Pai. But Jyu Chyuhn saw a man who was older, but who had not grown up… Jyu Chyuhn refused…

Chan Tai San then cursed his teacher, calling him an old man, a worthless old man, Sifu Chan said that he didn’t need to learn Lama, he was already a combat veteran with cross training

Sifu Chan, in anger, attacked Jyu Chyuhn

I tell you this story as Sifu Chan told it to me, I asked him, “so what happened”?

He told me that the next thing he knew, he was on his hands and knees. he thought that some of his teeth had been knocked out and he reached out to find them, he wanted to stuff them back into his mouth, because he wanted to be buried with them. He said that he knew he was no longer a child, and as such, he expected that this time Jyu Chyuhn would kill him for such an attack

Instead, Jyu Chyuhn picked up Sifu Chan, took him inside and nursed him back to health. Sifu Chan said that upon being picked up, he cried like a baby and begged his sifu to forgive him. And Jyu Chyuhn did. After a few months of healing, Sifu Chan began studying Lama Pai…

David, if you don’t mind, Could you elaborate a little bit upon your personal relationship with sifu? You mention is was “complicated”.

Btw, I think there is something to be said about traditional kung fu here. - fighting’s ultimate level is killing each other. It’s one thing to batter each other in a ring, or your kwoon. It’s one thing to defend your life from an attack.

But when you are the predator and kungfu is the vehicle for this.

You have crossed into another world.

Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B]At first Chan Tai-San did not learn Lama Pai. Instead he learned basic kung-fu skills and Choi Lei Faht and general monastic practices. He practiced everyday, three times a day for close to seven years before he even heard about Lama Pai.

Sifu Chan relates that he had a terrible temper and had gotten into fights with local gangsters. Despite repeated warnings from the monks, Sifu Chan engaged in many duels, including several with western boxers, and was always victorious. For this reason the monks suspended his training and refused to allow him to study their most valued system, Lama Pai.

One day, out of frustration, Chan Tai-San decided to challenge his teacher, the very same monk who taught Lama Pai. The monk easily defeated Chan Tai-San but saw a spark of hope in the young student. After Chan Tai-San swore to change his ways he was finally allowed to learn Lama Pai. That monk was Jyu Chyuhn.

After seven years of intense study, Chan Tai-San completed the Lama Pai system under Jyu Chyuhn’s direction. Chan Tai-San had devoted himself to Jyu Chyuhn’s version of Lama Pai and had never realized that there were numerous versions of the Lion’s Roar tradition in southern China. It wasn’t until Chan Tai-San left the monastery and had met teachers of White Crane and Haap Ga that he had an opportunity to see just how complete Jyu Chyuhn’s version had been. To further his knowledge of Lama Pai, Chan Tai-San studied with Dang Ho, a student of Wong Lam-Hoi, and with Ma Yi-Po, a student of Wong Yan-Lam. Ma Yi-Po was particularly valuable in helping Chan Tai-San uncover the truth because he had studied another version of Lama Pai in Manchuria. [/B]

Sifu Ross, I have always wanted to know how the Lama Pai from Manchuria was differant from the Wongs, would you share some info on the differances?..how many differant Lama styles did your sifu study, etc?

lmao @ this: "Sifu Tai Yim: “Master Chan is happy to be here. He says that kung fu is excellent for everyone, an excellent way to get healthy”

Only problem, while sifu is talking, he’s mimicing the blood and mayhem with his hands. His body language is anything but about “health and spiritual development”

The Chinese in attendance are dying laughing…

Sifu Tai Yim keeps trying to ad libb

Sifu Chan is mimicing White Haired Devil choking to death the last guy

I’m just standing there…"

Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B]The climax of this difficult and conflicted relationship came when Chan Tai San was an adult…

At 17, in 1937, the Japanese had invaded China. Chan Tai San left the temple to join the resistance to the invasion, joining the KMT’s special “peasants’ division”

At this time, Chan Tai San had NOT yet learned Lama Pai. Jyu Chyuhn felt he had been too immature and wild to learn the method. He had only studied Choy Lay Fut.

In the “peasants’ division” however, Chan Tai San was in the company of many kung fu master (White Haired Devil for example) and since they were all in the same cause of fighting the Japanese, they shared techniques, a first for Chinese martial artists who had before all been in their sects fighting eachother

after years of fighting the Japanese and after having learned other methods of Kung Fu from his fellow soldiers, Chan TAI San returned home…

Sifu Chan thought he was a man, and he wanted Jyu Chyuhn to teach him Lama Pai. But Jyu Chyuhn saw a man who was older, but who had not grown up… Jyu Chyuhn refused…

Chan Tai San then cursed his teacher, calling him an old man, a worthless old man, Sifu Chan said that he didn’t need to learn Lama, he was already a combat veteran with cross training

Sifu Chan, in anger, attacked Jyu Chyuhn

I tell you this story as Sifu Chan told it to me, I asked him, “so what happened”?

He told me that the next thing he knew, he was on his hands and knees. he thought that some of his teeth had been knocked out and he reached out to find them, he wanted to stuff them back into his mouth, because he wanted to be buried with them. He said that he knew he was no longer a child, and as such, he expected that this time Jyu Chyuhn would kill him for such an attack

Instead, Jyu Chyuhn picked up Sifu Chan, took him inside and nursed him back to health. Sifu Chan said that upon being picked up, he cried like a baby and begged his sifu to forgive him. And Jyu Chyuhn did. After a few months of healing, Sifu Chan began studying Lama Pai… [/B]
without stirring up any isht with the CLF guys on here:) how come Lama was so seceret?

DAMM!! I was laughing my AZZ off over the description of the translating at Tai Yim’s tournament!! :smiley: :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

Excellent par non…

Ross Sifu,

I applaud you for sharing these stories with us. Too many people are often afraid or conflicted to give out these reminders that ALL people are human no matter the background.

I loved the story where Sifu Chan was telling everyone about White Hair Devil Sifu’s killing of men in the teahouse.

I can only imagine what was going on through your mind.

Kudos to you.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

Dude! I just cut and pasted Coach Ross’s stories and only a few pertinant other comments. It’s at 20 pages, so far!:cool: