Chain Punching

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Ultimate Fighter, you said:

The best way I know to counter anyone who comes at you with a flurry of punches is to duck low and take them down.

If somebody ‘comes at you’ chainpunching, (you have implied they are closing the gap using ‘a flurry of punches’) they deserve whatever you give 'em. That is not what chainpunching is about. You should not initiate contact with chainpunches. You do not ‘set-up’ chainpunching. Once you have landed a blow, you occupy the line. That’s when chainpunching ‘happens’. You should never be looking to perform something you have learned. You use the tool that the situation calls for. Would you try to execute a trap when no obstruction exists? Of course not. Why would you chainpunch if you do not occupy a line to execute it?

-Alex

42

Originally posted by Rill
[B]

I’ll admit, I’m laughing a lot at you ‘ducking’ my chain punches - what, you think chain punches are just going to continue aimed at the spot where your head was while you come in? If your hands aren’t there to stop them, the only thing that’s going to be impeding my chain punches is your head when they connect while you’re trying to ‘duck’ under them. You don’t just throw chain punches and hope they connect, you use them when circumstances allow you to deliver multiple strikes and control the opponent while you’re doing it. [/B]

I was referring in particular to Gandolfs comments about one hand and two moves. I know many wing chun methods to block chain punches, which mainky involve stepping off line and returning fire with a sideling punch. So do not question my wing chun knowledge based on one post. If you read my post, I stated that the most effective way to counter chainpunches or punching attack is a duck under and shoot. I defy you to laugh at me or any grappler who shoots in, takes your legs and lands you on your head before Ground and pounding you out. Guess like you don’t have much knowldge of MMA.

BTW, punching the top of the head when someone has ducked under is next to useless. Elbows and knees are orders of the day. So your comment about punching someones head when they have shot in (not to mention the fact that you would be falling to the ground) shows that you have little knowledge of real fighting.

43

Seems to me FWIW that the chain punching and the counters(ducking) discussed in this thread assumes that the other fella is going to be static and cooperative.

44

UF

Sorry that I haven’t been able to check the forum the today until now but what Rill said is exactly how he did (pak and tan). Thanks Rill for the indepth answer. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Yuanfen,
Yes I was being static (staying in one place) for two reasons: 1. the defender still has one hand with which to keep you at bay. 2. when my Sihing and I were doing this, it was only private demostration to show me that chainpunching can be desolved with one hand. His point was to show me not to put all my stock in chainpunching. So, yes I was being more cooperative than I would have been free sparing or in a fight, but then again so was he. :slight_smile:

45

I know many wing chun methods to block chain punches, which mainky involve stepping off line and returning fire with a sideling punch.

Like yuanfen said, that’s only going to work if the other guy is static and co-operative. Going on the rather large assumption that you can move your head anywhere near as fast as I can move my hands (been watching too many Bruce Lee movies?), you then have to assume I’m so utterly stupid that I keep firing multiple punches at the spot where your head was - I should instead be using Chum Kiu principles to follow you and keep striking. You’re also assuming here that chain punching is just multiple punches in the air - so what about chain kicking? Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Bart and Lisa are doing the whole “well I’m just going to keep walking towards you doing this, and if you get in my road, then it’s your own fault” thing, and one of them starts kicking the air and the other waves their arms like a windmill. Sound stupid? Yes, it is - that’s exactly what you’re suggesting your opponent will be doing when he’s chain punching.

So do not question my wing chun knowledge based on one post.

Difficult, considering your best counter to chain punching is a grappling move.

I defy you to laugh at me or any grappler who shoots in, takes your legs and lands you on your head before Ground and pounding you out.

Ha ha, yes, nice one. And I’m doing what, while he’s doing this? Oh, that’s right, still aiming at the spot where his head was several seconds ago. Go read yuanfen’s post again.

For the record, I’m defying you and all the other grapplers who think they’re not going to get punched in the head while they’re doing that. If you listen carefully, you might be able to hear me laughing.

punching the top of the head when someone has ducked under is next to useless. Elbows and knees are orders of the day.

Closest weapon, closest target. If my legs were closer, I could kick or knee - since we’re assuming I’ve just started chain punching, I think I’d pretty well want to be in close, but since my hands are already out near his head, I think I’ll primarily use my hands (maybe kick too, though). Maybe I have to bend to use my elbows, in which case I’d rather not, perhaps I’d cut down on top of his head - but we’re getting into that entirely useless argument of ‘what if I did this, and then you did that?’ now, and it’s pointless to go there.

I will however, mention that it does not matter a whit where you punch someone in the head. You are after a shock effect on the brain that is attained through a fast strike (i.e. speed, not strength), so it doesn’t matter where you hit the target, as long as you hit it fast - hence someones previous post regarding WSL’s philosophy of two punches.

46

All your post proves is that you have no knowledge of martial arts other than wing chun, which means you obviously have not experiences other styles or cross trained so really your opinions on how to defend grapplers is pretty much irrelevent. Read my post again - a ‘duck under’ does not mean you ‘duck beneath’ the punches (again, seeing as you have no grappling experinece I can’t blame you for not understanding this), but it mean you go beneach their centre of gravity and take them down. It doesn’t matter if you follow up chainpunching the top of their head as they do this, becasue you will be going down so they will have little power, and the top of the head very hard to damage with any punch.

A takedown or ‘shoot’ is the most effective counter to any punching attack - whether you try and chainpunch, corss or girl slap me it doesn’t make a difference. Your advocating of chainpunches and a ‘kick’ to defend a shoot also shows your limited knowledge of actual fighting. Better get some cross training in before you get humiliated by someone who has trained in reality.

47

Teaser - I wouldn’t aim all of my chain punches at the same area, unless it was continuously open (which is very unlikely).

While I agree in principal, the definition of chain punching for me is a flurry of alternating punches towards some particular area. If there’s a reason to change, IE they have their hand in the way or whatever, then you react to that, perhaps by adjusting the angle of attack, & it’s no longer chain punching.

The proponents of ‘Chain punching ad infinitum’ appear to be using a definiton for it more similar to what I would call “beating on someone”.

Little wonder that confusion reigns!

48

UF sez:
Read my post again - a ‘duck under’ does not mean you ‘duck beneath’ the punches (again, seeing as you have no grappling experinece I can’t blame you for not understanding this), but it mean you go beneach their centre of gravity and take them down. It doesn’t matter if you follow up chainpunching the top of their head as they do this, becasue you will be going down so they will have little power, and the top of the head very hard to damage with any punch.

Did read your post carefully. Sorry to still disagree with you. A brief comment or two and I will let you go.

  1. You are still using a static model.

  2. The other guy if he is any good atleast at wc can adjust as you try to go below his center of gravity.

  3. There are incompetent and competent ways of dealing with the head as you “duck” no matter how low.

  4. Foreman sent Frazier- no soft headed slouch- to sleep city
    witha boxing punch on the top of the head- right place- right time.

  5. Some wc folks know what to do- even when they are taken down. WC is not a sport.
    I dont think that the frequent posters change their minds much in these list “chats” . But its ok to chat and try. Cheers.

49

FWIW,

the way I explain chain punching (which really winds up becoming linked continuous attack as it evolves) as a counter to grappling to people with grappling experience (after showing them) is fairly simple- you’re posting off the other person continuously and hard.

Umm, UF- I agree that the top of the head is a hard target and one which the vast majority of people cannot do much damage to. That being said, watch Randelman vs. Rutten or Coleman vs. Smith for some people being made very uncomfortable by shots to the top of the head, being delivered at fairly low power (by excellent strikers in mechanically disadvantageous positions). Many bad things can happen if you take shots from that angle. From most people, it’s a blowoff, at most times, I agree, but you can train to change that.

Later,

Andrew

50

Just a little addition …

Since we are talking about punching to the back of the head … It can be very dammaging to yourself too. I heard that someone broke his hand doing just that in the Danish WT Fighter Club.

51

Use your palm.

Or your cell phone.

Andrew

52

It doesn’t matter if you follow up chainpunching the top of their head as they do this, becasue you will be going down so they will have little power

I’m still laughing.

A takedown or ‘shoot’ is the most effective counter to any punching attack

Forgive me, I thought you did Wing Chun - it’s apparent you don’t. Perhaps you should consider changing your profile?

Yuanfen knows where it’s at, yet again.

53

Originally posted by Rill, and well worth repeating:

>> You don’t just throw chain punches and hope they connect, you use them when circumstances allow you to deliver multiple strikes and control the opponent while you’re doing it. <<

Chainpunching is a concept, the concept of striking the same area multiple times once you have a line, and are in range to do so. If you have to strike twice, or 10 times, then you so be it, you do as much damage as needs to be done. If the guy has still not gone down after 10 punches, then either you are fighting a wall, you are ineffective at punching, or your opponents head has turned into blancmange and you just like inflicting pain :wink:

To punch when you dont have a line to hit or are out of range is a waste of time and energy.

As for counters against a chain puncher moving towards you, they are indeed simple and legion. If he is in range to hit, gong sao and punch springs to mind. Simple, direct and efficient. Or if he is out of range, kick him in the goolies, while he wastes his time punching the air.

54

Rill and Frank Exchange, what you guys say makes sense to me, and I tend to agree.

Somewhere, Redd (double d) also asked some pointed questions about the difference between chain punching and a series of single punches. If I read him right (always a caveat) then I see his point, and agree with the importance of asking those questions.

I admit that when watching demonstrations of chain punching, I often fail to see evidence of sensitivity, positioning or both.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
55

Yep, the question is indeed a valid one. For me there is little difference. A punch is a punch is a punch, I punch when I have the line and am in range to do so.

If I still have the line after the first punch, then the simplest and most direct thing is to punch again with the other arm as the first is withdrawn, preferably aiming for the same target area.

However, this is where reality gets in the way, and it is entirely possible that I no longer have the line to hit after the first punch has landed.

I must then do something else that enables me to regain this line to I can hit again, but what I don’t do is continue to punch anyway.

So for me, chain punching is a series of single punches to the same area, the application of a concept. Each punch must be structurally valid in itself, ideally with the full body weight and stance behind it, and must not rely on the previous or subsequent punches.

56

quote teazer:

While I agree in principal, the definition of chain punching for me is a flurry of alternating punches towards some particular area. If there’s a reason to change, IE they have their hand in the way or whatever, then you react to that, perhaps by adjusting the angle of attack, & it’s no longer chain punching.

–

I think your wrong. Read Frank Exchange’s posts:

"…To punch when you dont have a line to hit or are out of range is a waste of time and energy. "

“…Each punch must be structurally valid in itself, ideally with the full body weight and stance behind it, and must not rely on the previous or subsequent punches…”

–

57

Originally posted by Rill
[B]
I’m still laughing.

Forgive me, I thought you did Wing Chun - it’s apparent you don’t. Perhaps you should consider changing your profile?

[/B]

It gets extremely annoying arguing basic points with people such as this who have no grappling experience yet think they can talk about it. And no, I do not do wing chun. I do WingTsun and Judo. A couple of my friends, also Judoka and some with a kickboxing background have had much amusement reading your posts. Keep laughing, as long as you realise the jokes are on you. Especially entertaining are your posts where you think that you can defend a shoot with a ‘kick’ (lol that braught on stitches), or where you seem to conclude that punching the top of the skull is an effective strategy to counter a takedown attempt. Only an idiot would suggest this, unless you’d like to break your hands.

In conclusion I would say get ont he mat and put up or in your case shut up against a good Judoka/wrestler, or watch ANY UFC tape where a grappler faces a pue striker and you will see that defending a takedown is much harder to do than to talk about.

58

I think your wrong. Read Frank Exchange’s posts:

"…To punch when you dont have a line to hit or are out of range is a waste of time and energy. "

“…Each punch must be structurally valid in itself, ideally with the full body weight and stance behind it, and must not rely on the previous or subsequent punches…”

– [/B]

It’s happened before, but by my definitions at least, not this time.
IMO the quotes offered, while an interesting addition (and worth repeating!) do not seem to contradict my previous thought. Perhaps I have been unclear in phrasing?
Perhaps you would be kind enough to paraphrase your disagreement.

59

I said I think your wrong, because I was unsure exactly…

“…the definition of chain punching for me is a flurry of alternating punches towards some particular area…”

This sounds like just throwing 3, 4, 5 punches AT your opponent, instead of connecting with one attack, and then following it with others. I really just wanted to c/p Frank Exchange.

60

Straight blast, I have, both were finished with one hit, and some help. The first I pushed a guy over a table he was standing in front of, he was bigger then I so I just hit him in the upper chest with my palms (This was a karate technique and at the time it was what I was studying) and he went right over the table.
The second I just hit him as hard as I could in the sternum and he lost his breath (Again, this time it was karate) Otherwise I work a seasonal security Job where I often have to take down rowdy drunks who want to ge violent. I have seen quite a few fights at this location as well as I while I was in the military. I wouldnt say my experience is extensive by any means but I am no new comer to “real” fighting.

Cobra - “why don’t you try 3 punches on a guy loaded on PCP and then stop to see if that was enough while he kicks your ass? How about training smart by training for the unknown instead of what you think will happen based on watching UFC cage matches”

I dot watch UFC and if I were facing down a guy with a PCP problem I would hope I had some backup or was smart enough to run like hell and let someone else who is better equipped, like the police, to handle it. I also dont assume that every street fight is with a PCP laden psycho.

DS - “Surely you use whatever force is necessary to defeat the opponant?”

Yep, but I wouldnt commit to such a plan in the first place because there are many other ways to stop a fight then chain punching and in my opinion, much smarter ways.

TargetAlex - "If you are forced to fight and you are not 100% commited to doing WHATEVER it takes to survive, you probably are going to lose.

I am, and part of being 100% committed is not doing something I consider foolhardy, chain punching in excess falls into this category for me.

“When was the last time you saw a non-professional (i.e. street) fight? I have yet to see one that wasn’t sloppy and ugly. Graceful streefighting with smooth techniques? Only in Hollywood, my friend.”

Read my response to Straight Blast to answer your first question. for the second, Sloppiness is why I train to be as precise as possible. If you train sloppy, then you get more sloppy when you are in a fight. If you train precision, your skills ownt degrade so much when you are fighting.