Can anyone post all the kinship terms for kung fu schools or clans like “hing dai”, “si hing”, “si mu”, etc.?
Sigung = Grandmaster/teacher’s teacher
Sifu = Master/teacher
Sibaak = Senior Uncle
Siguma = Senior Aunt
Sisuk = Junior Uncle
Siguje = Junior Aunt
Sihing = Senior Brother
Sijeh = Senior Sister
Simui = Junior Sister
Sidai = Junior Brother
Toudai = Student/indoor student
Tousyunneui = Female Grandstudent
Tousyun = Male Grandstudent
These are the ones I know of, plus the two at the bottom are from a reference I found on the web.
specific to Faruq’s request
Hing dai - the hing is the same hing in sihing () which means elder brother. The dai means ‘big’ (), which adds more respect to the term. Sometimes you might hear it as dai sihing. The meaning is more or less the same.
Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that’s a Confucian thing.
Gene-I was taught that Hing as in older, Dai-as in younger (Si-dai) Different character for dai. therefore Hing-dai is fellow training brothers,
Ji-Mui fellow training sisters.
So are there two different Hing-Dai?
Hmm, you may be right, TT
I’ve always assumed it was a derivation of Dai Sihing, but I don’t speak Cantonese. I stand corrected.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1190653]Hing dai - the hing is the same hing in sihing () which means elder brother. The dai means ‘big’ (), which adds more respect to the term. Sometimes you might hear it as dai sihing. The meaning is more or less the same.
Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that’s a Confucian thing.[/QUOTE]
Gene:
I also heard that Simo was used for the wife of a Sifu (that did not practice kung fu) and that Simu was for a a wife of the Sifu that had a Black Belt (or comprable rank), but was not the Sifu. Clarify if you could.
ginosifu
I don’t know about that, Gino
The character is mu in Mandarin and mou in Cantonese. Some say the character is symbolic of breasts, which is easy enough to visualize. Muqin () is the formal term for mother. I’d have to see the character for this Simo. Note that I’m not a native speaker and don’t really have any grasp of Cantonese beyond studying under a Hong Kong master (as you know Gino) for a few decades.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;1190627]Sigung = Grandmaster/teacher’s teacher
Sifu = Master/teacher
Sibaak = Senior Uncle
Siguma = Senior Aunt
Sisuk = Junior Uncle
Siguje = Junior Aunt
Sihing = Senior Brother
Sijeh = Senior Sister
Simui = Junior Sister
Sidai = Junior Brother
Toudai = Student/indoor student
Tousyunneui = Female Grandstudent
Tousyun = Male Grandstudent
These are the ones I know of, plus the two at the bottom are from a reference I found on the web.[/QUOTE]
What about just brother? Like an equal student? Not senior or junior. Is that Toudai?
Edit: I see you said Hing Dai. That is equal brother under the same sifu?
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1190653]Hing dai - the hing is the same hing in sihing () which means elder brother. The dai means ‘big’ (), which adds more respect to the term. Sometimes you might hear it as dai sihing. The meaning is more or less the same.
Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that’s a Confucian thing.[/QUOTE]
Kinda sexist huh. A female must earn Sifu but her husband gets a free title? Cause he’s her master? Sup?
[QUOTE=Syn7;1190695]Kinda sexist huh. A female must earn Sifu but her husband gets a free title? Cause he’s her master? Sup?[/QUOTE]
Not ‘sexist,’ ‘Confucian.’ 
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1190660]Gene-I was taught that Hing as in older, Dai-as in younger (Si-dai) Different character for dai. therefore Hing-dai is fellow training brothers,
Ji-Mui fellow training sisters.
[/QUOTE]
this was always my understanding as well;
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1190748]Not ‘sexist,’ ‘Confucian.’ ;)[/QUOTE]
Is that like “He didn’t beat his wife, he was teaching her a lesson”?
[QUOTE=Syn7;1190694]What about just brother? Like an equal student? Not senior or junior. Is that Toudai?
Edit: I see you said Hing Dai. That is equal brother under the same sifu?[/QUOTE]
No such thing.
Even in you were metaphorical “twins” (born on the same day) there is still going to be one of you who kneeled and presented tea before the other one. Even if it was only earlier than you by one minute, that person is your shixiong and you are the shidi (Cantonese: Sihing and Sidai)
Don’t forget that traditionally “seniority” is the same in Kungfu as in the workplace. It has nothing to do with rank or belts or what you’ve learned. It’s simply a measure of how long you have been Sifu’s student.
========================================================
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1190653]
Simu - the mu, usually pronounced mou in Cantonese (), means mother. This is the term you use to address the wife of your Sifu. However, a female Sifu is still addresses as Sifu, not Simou. Her husband is also addresses as Sifu. I think that’s a Confucian thing.[/QUOTE]
Interestingly, in northern China…well in Xi’an anyways…instead of Simu () the term of preference is (Mandarin) Shiniang (). It’s an oddly old fashioned term as “niang”/ is a term for “mother” that you don’t hear in contemporary Chinese. You usually only hear it in period pieces on TV.
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;1190627]Sigung = Grandmaster/teacher’s teacher
Sifu = Master/teacher
Sibaak = Senior Uncle
Siguma = Senior Aunt
Sisuk = Junior Uncle
Siguje = Junior Aunt
Sihing = Senior Brother
Sijeh = Senior Sister
Simui = Junior Sister
Sidai = Junior Brother
Toudai = Student/indoor student
Tousyunneui = Female Grandstudent
Tousyun = Male Grandstudent
These are the ones I know of, plus the two at the bottom are from a reference I found on the web.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, everyone! Also to Omar the Fish, is Xi’an Uighur territory? They only do Turkish oil wrestling, right? No complete systems like the Chinese arts.
[QUOTE=omarthefish;1190799]No such thing.
Even in you were metaphorical “twins” (born on the same day) there is still going to be one of you who kneeled and presented tea before the other one. Even if it was only earlier than you by one minute, that person is your shixiong and you are the shidi (Cantonese: Sihing and Sidai)
Don’t forget that traditionally “seniority” is the same in Kungfu as in the workplace. It has nothing to do with rank or belts or what you’ve learned. It’s simply a measure of how long you have been Sifu’s student.
========================================================
Interestingly, in northern China…well in Xi’an anyways…instead of Simu () the term of preference is (Mandarin) Shiniang (). It’s an oddly old fashioned term as “niang”/ is a term for “mother” that you don’t hear in contemporary Chinese. You usually only hear it in period pieces on TV.[/QUOTE]
In the workplace, people who are hired on the same day have the same seniority.
Thanx for the info tho.
Syn7,
Touche.
In any case, I just meant to contrast with the idea of ranks/belts.
Faruq,
Jokes aside, no Turks in Xi’an. The language is Turkic but geographically it’s pretty far from Turkey. Also, while there is a pretty sizable Ouigher population in Xi’an, the moslem population here is mostly Hui, not Ouigher or other Jinjiang based minorities. There are a lot of Ouighers in the southern part of town but the Moslem Quarter is primarily Hui.
As to MA, Xinyi, Xingyi and Tongbei are all very popular arts among the Hui in Xi’an.
[QUOTE=omarthefish;1190835]The language is Turkic but geographically it’s pretty far from Turkey.[/QUOTE]
Is that from settling traders on the silk trade routes?
Is “what” because of the trader’s on the silk routes?
A whole bunch of ethnic groups appear to be being conflated here. Grab yourself a map or head over to Google earth and find Turkey, Xinjiang and Xi’an.
Turkey is waaaay over the west. The turkic people in China come from Jinjiang and also from all those various countries with names ending in -stan. They are not ethnically Chinese but there presence in China has virtually nothing to do with the silk road history. Well maybe something but not much. Jinjiang is a massive territory that was just pretty much annexed an brought into China during the modern era. Historically there had been a tributary relationship (as in paying tribute) but no resources to take them by force.
The language is Turkic because…well…Turkic is a huge category. It’s a linguistic family like latin or germanic. Most all of central asia speaks various turkic family languages just as most of Europe speaks romance languages (ie Latin based). Blame the Ottomans.
The Hui people, OTOH, speak languages having no relationship to Turkish. The Hui are also brought to China in general and Xi’an in specific as a result of ancient trade routes. They are far more assimilated than the Oughers, Kazaks, Ouzbeks etc. and other than their little white hats, are pretty much visually indistinguishable from Han Chinese.
Yah, I am familiar with the geography, but not all the history. Thanx. What time period is that? Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire? The Ottomans ran things for quite a while.
Oh yeah, I know what a vassal state is:p thanx for being thorough though.
Thanx. What time period is that? Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire?
lol. I ain’t that familiar with the history. I didn’t even mention the Ottoman Empire in my original post. I was on my lunch break, took a nap and then suddenly thought, "Oh yeah. I bet they all speak Turkik because of the Ottomans. :o
My guess, without googling it, is that the Vassal state stuff with those central Asian border peoples goes back all the way to Tang dynasty. That’s when they were the biggest. . . actually Yuan was bigger but the Yuan dynasty was when the Mongols came in and conquered the Han, not the other way around.
Did they have any Turkic languages before the Ottoman Empire?
Again, moving beyond what I actually know now. I’d expect they did but the name wouldn’t make sense. We call Latin based languages “romance” languages because it was the Romans who spread them. We call central Asian languages “Turkic” because it was the ancient Turks who spread them.
I never really studied Central Asia. My major was in Chinese. You live in Asia and meet the people and you learn a few things. I’m no expert on this stuff. Just live a couple minutes from the muslim quarter is all. Before that I lived down by where all the Ouigher’s hang out.