Building strength the TCMA way

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
121

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has “inflated bodybuilder muscles”. That’s why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn’t training for powerlifting.

Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock “sports cars.” This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the “big guys.”

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we’re not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don’t gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don’t see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I’ve seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).

A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there’s an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

“we tap out bodybuilders”

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.

122

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1132259]“crazy old man strength” ??
Compared to what? guys that don’t do ANY ST?
Friend of mine once wanted to compete on a strongman competition, he was freakishly strong, doing labour contruction work all day, bag of cements, barrow full of bricks, the works.
Didn’t take my advice about doing ST so I took him to a local strong man gym.
After watching those guys for 30 min, he HAD to try it !
Failed miserably and couldn’t understand why.
I didn’t understand how he DIDN’T understand.
After reading the last few posts I understand why.[/QUOTE]

Yes, because strong man gyms are the typical, stark majority of weight lifters.:p:D

123

[QUOTE=IronFist;1132262]All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has “inflated bodybuilder muscles”. That’s why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn’t training for powerlifting.

Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock “sports cars.” This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the “big guys.”

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we’re not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don’t gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don’t see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I see 150 pound dues doing them.

A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up.

“we tap out bodybuilders”

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.[/QUOTE]

Big is fine, but the point is strength, and a lot of this argument is coming from a false perspective that weight lifters we’ll run into are all well informed and strong, and this is hokum.

I worked construction for twenty years, knew my share of weight lifters that one wouldn’t want to mess with. They were the minority of the weight lifters. The rest thought a lot of their strength and looks, and left after a week of getting flak for not being able to hack it, just like skinny guys who couldn’t, just like fat, etc.

The world isn’t some sort of weird promo for weight lifting.

In construction, you favor the guys who’ve worked for ten years before anyone else, if you need to rely on strength to get something exhausting done. If one or more of them does we3ights, that’s a nice bonus, but they won’t likely move more sheets faster, if they have a brain in their head.

Further, of the strong guys I know, almost none have even an interest in fighting that isn’t already a martial artist, and would really not enjoy the thought of an activity in which their nose might get broken, and probably would get a broken nose against anyone who does any martial arts.

Being afraid of weight lifters is silly. Promoting an image of them as martial is a cartoon.

124

[QUOTE=IronFist;1132262]All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has “inflated bodybuilder muscles”. That’s why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn’t training for powerlifting.

Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock “sports cars.” This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the “big guys.”

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we’re not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don’t gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don’t see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I’ve seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).

A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there’s an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

“we tap out bodybuilders”

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.[/QUOTE]

Darn you and your Logic!!! Who invited you to this rant?!?!?

125

[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1132265]Big is fine, but the point is strength, and a lot of this argument is coming from a false perspective that weight lifters we’ll run into are all well informed and strong, and this is hokum.

I worked construction for twenty years, knew my share of weight lifters that one wouldn’t want to mess with. They were the minority of the weight lifters. The rest thought a lot of their strength and looks, and left after a week of getting flak for not being able to hack it, just like skinny guys who couldn’t, just like fat, etc.

The world isn’t some sort of weird promo for weight lifting.

In construction, you favor the guys who’ve worked for ten years before anyone else, if you need to rely on strength to get something exhausting done. If one or more of them does we3ights, that’s a nice bonus, but they won’t likely move more sheets faster, if they have a brain in their head.

Further, of the strong guys I know, almost none have even an interest in fighting that isn’t already a martial artist, and would really not enjoy the thought of an activity in which their nose might get broken, and probably would get a broken nose against anyone who does any martial arts.

Being afraid of weight lifters is silly. Promoting an image of them as martial is a cartoon.[/QUOTE]

We must’ve worked together or be brothers from anotha mutha 'cuz I have been doing nothing but agreeing with you this whole thread.

126

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132267]We must’ve worked together or be brothers from anotha mutha 'cuz I have been doing nothing but agreeing with you this whole thread.[/QUOTE]

I just always think it’s funny when someone comes along saying how a weight lifter would do this and that, fear them. I’ve got friends who lift, I got friends who I’d want with me in a bad situation, the overlap is not that far off from other groups.

I’ve seen big strapping guys leave work crying because they weren’t used to the way a lot of people in shops and work crews kid anyone for anything, because they had a hard time doing things before they had experience. Afraid of that? I think not.

People are people. Weight lifters aren’t any more a concern than most anyone else.

127

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132254]or I could stay with “a waste of time for a martial artist”
or I could say “like masturbation, feels good but what’s the point?”

Heck - I’m full of 'em.

I like Gino Sifu’s[/QUOTE]

yep you are certainly full of something

128

[QUOTE=IronFist;1132262]All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential. Obviously there are other factors at play, most notably neurological efficiency both with regard to muscle recruitment and technique/skill.

But all else being equal, the bigger guy is stronger and wins.

Everyone knows a 150 pound guy who trains exclusively for powerlifting and can bench more than a 200 pound guy who has “inflated bodybuilder muscles”. That’s why i said all else being equal. The bodybuilder isn’t training for powerlifting.

Muscles are like car engines. Bigger has more potential. Yes, you can turbocharge a 1.7L Honda engine and make it go pretty fast. You can get it to the point where it will even beat some stock “sports cars.” This is equivalent to a smaller guy who is very skilled at powerlifting and can bench more than the “big guys.”

But if you begin with a better engine and give it the same turbocharging treatment, it will end up being faster in the end.

Unfortunately, everyone has different genetics, so we’re not all on a level playing field to begin with. Some of us eat 5,000 calories a day and don’t gain weight. Some of us get stronger just from looking at weights. Some of us could deadlift 225 on our first day at the gym. Some of us took 3 years to be able to deadlift 225 for one rep.

But the strongest people in the world are big people. There are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000+ pounds. Why? Because big muscle has more potential for strength.

Big muscle trained specifically for maximal strength output will be strongest.

Smaller people can be stronger proportionally to their weight. I don’t see any 250 pound dudes doing one arm pullups, but I’ve seen 150 pound dudes doing them. (I mean real one arm pullups, full range, with the non-working arm behind the back. None of this grab-your-wrist stuff).

A lot of martial artists tend to get this stuff mixed up. They think there’s an assumption that being big = being able to fight.

“we tap out bodybuilders”

Well no kidding. They were probably noobs.

Like Vash (I think) said, if they put as much effort into their BJJ as they did their bodybuilding, they would wipe the floor with everyone else of equal skill.[/QUOTE]

As far as size goes is that it’s possible to maintain an edge even if the other guy is bigger through superior training, technique, proportional strength advantages, and exploiting your opponent’s weakness. Do you have to be overall stronger than the other guy? - not really, you just have to be stronger in the things that you do very well. Be stronger than his defensive potential say for an omaplata, or ankle lock, or bicep crush or whatever it is that you do very well. That’s where sports specific weight training comes into play.

129

[QUOTE=Frost;1132248]or you could just get strong and then do your sport, you know go from general to specific strength[/QUOTE]

What he is describing is literally weight lifting. What lifts would he do generally that will equate to that strength? I could see something cable related, just curious if you know of something that would hit the same way.

130

[QUOTE=Frost;1132270]yep you are certainly full of something[/QUOTE]

Machismo!!!

131

[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1132273]What he is describing is literally weight lifting. What lifts would he do generally that will equate to that strength? I could see something cable related, just curious if you know of something that would hit the same way.[/QUOTE]

To simulate using your instep to set up an ankle pick? I think the bowling ball in the hole is pretty much spot on, but seems like cables could do it. Only thing is that the cables bypass the need for concentrating on stabilizing the ball to pull it out of the hole… you know, since they are attached to you and all and the ball isn’t.

132

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132275]To simulate using your instep to set up an ankle pick? I think the bowling ball in the hole is pretty much spot on, but seems like cables could do it. Only thing is that the cables bypass the need for concentrating on stabilizing the ball to pull it out of the hole… you know, since they are attached to you and all and the ball isn’t.[/QUOTE]

Makes sense.

133

Here is another TCMA training that can help to develop the “leg twist”. This one is also very difficult to find a modern method to replace it. The reason is simple, there is no modern equipmant that can help us to “twist” our leg.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

The leg twisting (Kawazu gake) is used in 0.58.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2neoxbPJr0

134

As far as actual body building goes i think the best thing to carry over from that into MA is the V taper shape one can maintain as they get bigger.Especially for me given i have a TKD backround i found putting on mass but keeping the waist small was crucial for the speed and flexibility need for the art .I’ve gone from 170 to 240 and i feel no loss in speed or flexibility at all.If anything I’ve GAINED more.

135

[QUOTE=goju;1132310]

As far as actual body building goes i think the best thing to carry over from that into MA is the V taper shape one can maintain as they get bigger.Especially for me given i have a TKD backround i found putting on mass but keeping the waist small was crucial for the speed and flexibility need for the art .I’ve gone from 170 to 240 and i feel no loss in speed or flexibility at all.If anything I’ve GAINED more.[/QUOTE]

Clearly you are slower and have less chi.

136

frost is right. you have serious issues with big strong bully types, i can understand that, but you are letting your personal demons taint your kung fu.

137

[QUOTE=goju;1132310]I’ve gone from 170 to 240 …[/QUOTE]

When you get older, you will spend a lot of money trying to lose your weight. Hope you will be able to reduce your body weight as easy as you did when you put it on. :smiley:

138

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1132301]The reason is simple, there is no modern equipmant that can help us to “twist” our leg.
[/QUOTE]

what are you talking about man, thats just a one sided barbell.\

do you really think with a 60 pound stone lock, you throw it in the air and twirl it and spin it? for “special strength”? are you getting senile?

you guys do know in traditional kung fu you do bicep curls and shoulder press with the stone locks, just like modern gyms, right?

139

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1132317]When you get older, you will spend a lot of money trying to lose your weight. Hope you will be able to reduce your body weight as easy as you did when you put it on. :D[/QUOTE]

Lou ferrignos stood huge and hes over the hill.If he can do it so can i :smiley:

140

[QUOTE=bawang;1132318]you guys do know in traditional kung fu you do bicep curls and shoulder press with the stone locks, just like modern gyms, right?[/QUOTE]

The main training for stone lock is not to “press” or to “lift” but to “swing”. When you "swing’ your stone lock, your body is functioned as one unit. This is the main difference between “muscle group isolation” and “body unification”.

http://www.ask.com/videos/watch-video/equipment-work-shuai-jiao-stone-lock-3/jvztf7QDw6AE0wdn5WW-LQ?o=100000031&l=dis&ver=11&domain=ask.com