Building strength the TCMA way

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
101

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132165]Fixed it for you. Walk into your local iron works gym. Watch what happens. Body builders do every version of bench possible - incline, decline, standard, inside grip, outside grip, flies - maybe they max weight - but no max rep, no 100% muscle fatigue… half their lifts are wrong - they don’t go full range - and usually their spotter does most of the work. They are lifting for the mirror and are trying to impress the other gym muscles. Preacher curls - usually too much weight, too little range… goes on and on. Why? Because they have no reason to be there. No goal.

Weight training - you have a goal. Maybe you go to a smith machine, put 120 or 130 pounds on it, put up the rubber stoppers to keep from killing yourself, lower the weight slowly - literally throw it on the press so that it leaves your hands, catch and slowly lower. Body builders are like “WTF is that?”. Sport specific athletes know you’re working fast twitch.[/QUOTE]

Doesn’t need fixing and you really should visit a proper gym sometimes and stoop making yourself look such an idiot :
he does incline, flat bench and dumbbell pressing with palms in and palms out and decline presses, as well as dips, all standard body building stuff

Body builders do max lifts, they go to full exhaustion, they also do max reps as well, they do whatever it takes to build and shock the muscles

You really should stop talking out of your back side about something you don’t know anything about

Sports guys know the smith machine is useless for anything other than being a coat rack…again please stop looking so silly

102

[QUOTE=Frost;1132120]Ronny coleman deadlifts in the 700-800 pound range before bodybuilding comps, franco Colombo as well as being a champion bodybuilder was also a world class powerlifter andd boxer, (you practise dancing around like a mantis bug and you call these guys public m8asterbators :o) )

The strongest guys I know are powerlifters, some of them have also done bodybuilding go figure[/QUOTE]

Franco also took a little martial arts. One time when asked about his bodybuilder physique and how it affected his martial arts he said, “If you hit me, I’ll still be standing. If I hit you, you will fall down.”

103

Smith Machine Throws

Performance Training

Bodybuilding vs Functional Strength - A body builder’s perspective.

DOES BODYBUILDING TRAINING HELP ATHLETES BECOME BETTER
ATHLETES?

Functional training can definitely help the bodybuilder become a better bodybuilder,
but is the reverse also true? In some instances yes, bodybuilding training can help
the athlete. For example, when an athlete needs to add 15-20 pounds of muscle, a
bodybuilding style program could be incorporated into a carefully periodized schedule
in order to achieve the hypertrophy desired.

However, functional training has more application to bodybuilders than bodybuilding
training has to athletes. For example, most bodybuilders train with a controlled
tempo and more time under tension. Bodybuilders generally perform little or no
explosive exercise, usually opting instead for slow reps such as a 2-3 second
concentric and a 3-4 second eccentric. Time under tension is an important
consideration for the bodybuilders.

If an athlete requiring explosiveness and strength used a traditional bodybuilding
protocol of 6-8 reps on a slow tempo such as 4031 or 9-12 reps on a 3020 tempo,
they would not be training the qualities they wanted to improve. As many strength
coaches are fond of saying, “train slow, get slow.”

Athletes are not primarily interested in cosmetic improvements or pure muscle
mass– they want functionality! They want strength, power, flexibility, coordination,
agility, balance and endurance. They want to run faster, jump higher and hit harder.

Athletes need very high levels of neuromuscular integration and recruitment of fast
twitch muscle fiber. They require activation of postural and stabilizing muscles. If
the athlete focused on muscular isolation and machine work as many of the
bodybuilders do, once again, they would not be training with the proper specificity.

The best thing an athlete can do to improve their sports performance is to use free
weights, explosive movements and functional training modalities that are as specific
to the requirements of their events as possible. Therefore, it’s only logical to
conclude that athletes should NOT train like bodybuilders.

104

You should really read the article.

So much good info like:

CLARITY OF PURPOSE IS THE ANSWER TO ALL YOUR TRAINING QUESTIONS

Here is the ultimate solution to all the questions and issues that have been brought
up in this article: GET CLARITY OF PURPOSE! Any confusion you have about the
multitude of training methods being promoted today will evaporate when you get
clear about what you want. Why are you in the gym? What, specifically are your
goals? Only after you have 100% clarity can you intelligently select the exercise
modalities that will accomplish your objective with maximum efficiency.

The really smart bodybuilder understands how his or her training should differ from
sports training and the smart athlete know the difference between strength training
and cosmetic bodybuilding. It really boils down to knowing what you want (clarity),
then choosing the appropriate tools to help you get there the fastest.

and…

CONCLUSION

Many bodybuilders have become closed minded to trying new things such as
functional exercise or working on a ball. As a result, they are finding themselves
developing imbalances, getting injuries and falling far short of their potential for
muscle mass. On the other hand, many strength coaches and athletes wrongly
accuse bodybuilders of faulty training, when the bodybuilders are in fact, doing
exactly what they are supposed to be doing: Training to look good. Bodybuilding is
NOT the worst thing that ever happened to strength training. Strength athletes, for
the most part, should simply train like athletes and bodybuilders should train like
bodybuilders. However, as this “old school” bodybuilder discovered, functional
training DOES have a place in the bodybuilder’s routine and the bodybuilders could
certainly stand to learn a thing or two from the athletic community.

105

My favorite phrase from the article is: “close minded.”

From the MA perspective, strength training Should fulfill two purposes, only one of which has been addressed in-depth; that being skill-specific ability.

Non technique training should also help prevent over use injuries, address muscular imbalances which can result from pure technical or “enhanced technical” training, as well as improving the overall functioning of the body, at play and at rest.

It seems prudent to me to do whichever training from whichever source that’s going to keep me effective today and 50 years down the road.

Traditional training can assist in this. So can elastic band movements, foam rolling muscles, jow application, single-muscle strength and (in some cases) hypertrophic training, uneven-fill sandbag throws, and reverse grip dumbbell press.

Why limit what options you have to enhance your Kung Fu?

106

[QUOTE=Frost;1132166]
Sports guys know the smith machine is useless for anything other than being a coat rack…again please stop looking so silly[/QUOTE]

Ideally yes, you want to use all free weights that offer the greatest range of motion when you’re a performance athlete… but I wouldn’t do throws “naked”. It’s much safer on a Smith.

Anyway - Now you maybe can understand why a performance strength athlete like myself would A) have respect for old school dynamic training methods like YouKnowWho posts, and B) have a disdain for cosmetic body building and see it as a waste of time.

I’ll agree I’m close-minded, but no more so than any of you, but I have very legitimate reasons because I’m a martial artist. Every trip to the gym, every work out has to have a purpose other than cosmetic.

107

[QUOTE=IronFist;1132035]Most martial artists would **** themselves if they had to fight a bodybuilder.[/QUOTE]

Where do you get this crap from? You are assuming that everyone in afraid of big muscular athletes? How do you know this? Where are you getting your information from?

I am 5’ 3" / 155lbs and I have never been afraid of anyone re-guardless of there skill, size, etc. I once fought a guy 6’ / 230lbs, I was able to control him and eventually made him tap with a Phoenix Eye (not a strike though) pressure point to the corated artery. Behind the artery itself is a bundle of nerves and the loss of blood to the head combined with the pain caused him to tap relatively quickly. I credit it to having a grip of steel and being able to control him while we were grappling. Tremendous grip strength is what is called “Specific Strength” training.

[QUOTE=Frost;1132119]Lol I tell you what go compete in a non weight class MMA event, or sanda against the bulky big guys and see how you do :o)

These comments are usually made by guys weight about 140 pounds, the first time an 85kg bodybuilder simply curled his way out of my 93kg arm bar I gained a new respect for bodybuilder, PS this guy put the same dedication and attention to detail in his grappling as he did his bodybuilding and thus cleaned up in every comp he entered[/QUOTE]

I dis agree with the generalized view point that getting bigger / stronger is the best way. Bodybuilders, powerlifters and peeps who just lift only to get massive bulk and strength may have the ability to crush a guy with one blow from their big meat hooks.

However, if they can not do the techniques the way I ask them to do, the way I want them to do it, then they are not able to learn my style. Just because you can pound a guy in the octagon does not necessarily mean that are able to utilize the techniques of your given style. Saying that… does mean that the modern day fighters do have any skill, which there are some that do have good fighting skills. I just think that many rely on strength and brutality over skill.

I get the point of getting stronger, but taking time out of skill practice, fighting class, sparring sessions cuz you want to lift that day is unacceptable. Strength specific techniques are usually built into kung fu training.

Bamboo Twisting - for grip strength

Belt Cracking - for grip strength

Jar Catching - learning to capture a limb

These are just a couple off the top of my head. There are many Weighting exercises geared for explosive attacks and other MA related areas. I think for myself and students, the main goal of strength training is more specific techniques which give them more time to do other stuff (Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou etc).

ginosifu

ps: I do not give a Fook Fu about how many great fighters were big and muscular and taught football teams strength management. I fought guys bigger than myself and they were gigantic ox’s with big meat hooks… that does mean they could fight well. That also dose not mean they put their strength where it needed to be.

108

Some TCMA strength training is not trying to develop “big muscle” but to develop certain part of body function that we just can’t develop through any other exercise.

When you push your opponent’s shoulder and “scoop” his foot into your hand, you can obtain your opponent’s “single leg” without shooting at his leg. In order to develop such ability, you can

  • dig a hole,
  • put a Bowling ball (steel ball in ancient time) in that hole, and
  • use your inner heel to scoop it out of that hole daily.

I go to gym all the time. I still cannot find any modern gym training equipment that can help me to develop that “particular” skill yet.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3005/changlegseize.jpg

109

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132078]You get it.

BTW - I worked as a furniture mover for about 6 years for United Van Lines. We’d get those body builder pu$$ies that couldn’t keep up with 60 year old men.

Uki is a brick mason… betcha he could make beyotches out of the “hardest” of body sculpting body builders.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Size somehow doesn’t turn into functional strength for some regimens, it seems like.

110

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132182]You should really read the article.

So much good info like:

and…[/QUOTE]

lol if this is where you are getting your education then…good luck

111

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132189]Ideally yes, you want to use all free weights that offer the greatest range of motion when you’re a performance athlete… but I wouldn’t do throws “naked”. It’s much safer on a Smith.

Anyway - Now you maybe can understand why a performance strength athlete like myself would A) have respect for old school dynamic training methods like YouKnowWho posts, and B) have a disdain for cosmetic body building and see it as a waste of time.

I’ll agree I’m close-minded, but no more so than any of you, but I have very legitimate reasons because I’m a martial artist. Every trip to the gym, every work out has to have a purpose other than cosmetic.[/QUOTE]

a sports specific strength athlete would not touch the smith machine, they would use medicine balls, kettlebells, shot puts etc, and there are good reasons for this that anyone with any knowledge would know :rolleyes:

lol get of your high horse, you have no idea why good strength coaches put in body building exercises (and even actual body building weeks in their training cycles,) coachs like defranco, Joe Kenn et al all see its value for both recovery from a hard season and also for injury provention, of course they are wrong and you are right i mean so what if they actually train athletes who are paid for their performance, , your not a performance strnegth athlete your a hobby martial arts guy get over yourself

112

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1132225]Some TCMA strength training is not trying to develop “big muscle” but to develop certain part of body function that we just can’t develop through any other exercise.

When you push your opponent’s shoulder and “scoop” his foot into your hand, you can obtain your opponent’s “single leg” without shooting at his leg. In order to develop such ability, you can

  • dig a hole,
  • put a Bowling ball (steel ball in ancient time) in that hole, and
  • use your inner heel to scoop it out of that hole daily.

I go to gym all the time. I still cannot find any modern gym training equipment that can help me to develop that “particular” skill yet.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3005/changlegseize.jpg[/QUOTE]

or you could just get strong and then do your sport, you know go from general to specific strength

113

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1132171]Franco also took a little martial arts. One time when asked about his bodybuilder physique and how it affected his martial arts he said, “If you hit me, I’ll still be standing. If I hit you, you will fall down.”[/QUOTE]

my favourite quote of his was when hes drunk he would walk down a street and lift and move the cars until they make a nice v shape all down the street, he was one strong smart guy

114

[QUOTE=Frost;1132247]a sports specific strength athlete would not touch the smith machine, they would use medicine balls, kettlebells, shot puts etc, and there are good reasons for this that anyone with any knowledge would know :rolleyes:

lol get of your high horse, you have no idea why good strength coaches put in body building exercises (and even actual body building weeks in their training cycles,) coachs like defranco, Joe Kenn et al all see its value for both recovery from a hard season and also for injury provention, of course they are wrong and you are right i mean so what if they actually train athletes who are paid for their performance, , your not a performance strnegth athlete your a hobby martial arts guy get over yourself[/QUOTE]

I’m not the one on the high horse. I presented an alternative argument that challenged your assumptions and you got all pi$$y. Granted I tend to do that too - I presented why I think bodybuilding isn’t for martial arts, I presented that sport specific strength training is better, I found alternative sources to back my claim, one from a body builder, and that’s that.

Guess what? I use medicine balls, kettle bells etc. I was exposed to the smith throw from a Jiu Jitsu guy. Ideally you’d use a free weight bar, but as he put it, why be stupid and risk an injury because you’re fatigued or miss the catch? As far as injury prevention, strength training, etc… I’ll stick with my guys. They know their $hit.

115

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132250]I’m not the one on the high horse. I presented an alternative argument that challenged your assumptions and you got all pi$$y. Granted I tend to do that too - I presented why I think bodybuilding isn’t for martial arts, I presented that sport specific strength training is better, I found alternative sources to back my claim, one from a body builder, and that’s that.

Guess what? I use medicine balls, kettle bells etc. I was exposed to the smith throw from a Jiu Jitsu guy. Ideally you’d use a free weight bar, but as he put it, why be stupid and risk an injury because you’re fatigued or miss the catch? As far as injury prevention, strength training, etc… I’ll stick with my guys. They know their $hit.[/QUOTE]

nope you went off on one calling bodybuilding gay and god knows what, you dont know anything about body building and very little about athletic development, yo

116

[QUOTE=Frost;1132251]nope you went off on one calling bodybuilding gay and god knows what, you dont know anything about body building and very little about athletic development, yo[/QUOTE]

It is g@y.

117

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132253]It is g@y.

—[/QUOTE]

or I could stay with “a waste of time for a martial artist”
or I could say “like masturbation, feels good but what’s the point?”

Heck - I’m full of 'em.

I like Gino Sifu’s

I get the point of getting stronger, but taking time out of skill practice, fighting class, sparring sessions cuz you want to lift that day is unacceptable. Strength specific techniques are usually built into kung fu training.

Bamboo Twisting - for grip strength

Belt Cracking - for grip strength

Jar Catching - learning to capture a limb

These are just a couple off the top of my head. There are many Weighting exercises geared for explosive attacks and other MA related areas. I think for myself and students, the main goal of strength training is more specific techniques which give them more time to do other stuff (Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou etc).

118

[QUOTE=MightyB;1132094]RESPECT
In MMA, we beware of guys like you - we call it that “crazy old man strength”. We always are more wary of the construction or iron workers cuz they’ll get you with that “crazy old man strength”. The preppy body builders… meh- Even our smallest guy will have them tapping in the first round.[/QUOTE]

Someone who trains BJJ can tap out a bodybuilder who doesn’t train BJJ?

Stop the press.

119

“crazy old man strength” ??
Compared to what? guys that don’t do ANY ST?
Friend of mine once wanted to compete on a strongman competition, he was freakishly strong, doing labour contruction work all day, bag of cements, barrow full of bricks, the works.
Didn’t take my advice about doing ST so I took him to a local strong man gym.
After watching those guys for 30 min, he HAD to try it !
Failed miserably and couldn’t understand why.
I didn’t understand how he DIDN’T understand.
After reading the last few posts I understand why.

120

Lifters and martial artists who frequent forums and read about the material they are working with every day and stay on the cutting edge are not the lifters one most likely runs into.

I’m sorry, but the reality on the ground is that most guys doing weight lifting are not doing heavy research. I worked for twenty years in a field rife with guys who lifted weights, and the quality level, endurance level, and strength level of all but a few of them was not as impressive as their size.

The ones with great strength, yeah, probably better informed. But the fact is, those guys are not the majority by any stretch of the imagination.