[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1132325]The main training for stone lock is not to “press” or to “lift”[/QUOTE]
you do know what is “hua suo” flower locks? twirling is for performance.
forget those silly shuai jiao youtube videos twirling those 10 pound baby locks. traditionally you do lift.
there are even old stone lock manuals with pictures showing bicep curls.
[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1132269]I’ve seen big strapping guys leave work crying because they weren’t used to the way a lot of people in shops and work crews kid anyone for anything, because they had a hard time doing things before they had experience. Afraid of that? I think not.
People are people. Weight lifters aren’t any more a concern than most anyone else.[/QUOTE]
Again, untrained bodybuilders don’t prove or disprove anything.
Noob bodybuilders showing up at a construction site where people who are conditioned and have been doing the work for years are performing better than them doesn’t prove anything.
Who makes fun of noobs because they suck at things? 
Guess what? Skinny people get tapped out on their first day of class, too!
So do functional strength kettlebell dudes and Crossfitters.
So do marathoners.
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, actually.
People suck at things they are new at.
But if there are two fighters of equal skill, my money is on the bigger and stronger one every time.
Sometimes the bigger one isn’t stronger, although the bigger one probably has better muscular endurance. A 150 pound powerlifter who can bench 350 and a 200 pound bodybuilder who can bench 315, if it was a contest to see who can rep 225 the most, I think the 200 pound guy would win.
I just arbitrarily picked those numbers.
But geez, some of you guys are making it sound like bodybuilders are weaker than the general population. And slower and inflexible. lol.
Bodybuilders are worse at stuff they haven’t specifically trained for than people who have specifically trained for it. That’s no surprise. That’s why you guys tap them out when they are noobs and you have been training for years.
I bet bodybuilders are worse at guitar on their first day of lessons than someone who has been plying for 5 years.
I also bet bodybuilders are worse at fixing cars on their first day than people who have been mechanics for 15 years.
Wow, from this we can deduce that bodybuilding makes you bad at playing guitar and fixing cars!
Come on.
[QUOTE=bawang;1132334]you do know what is “hua suo” flower locks? twirling is for performance.
forget those silly shuai jiao youtube videos twirling those 10 pound baby locks. traditionally you do lift.
there are even old stone lock manuals with pictures showing bicep curls.[/QUOTE]
You are right that the "heavy’ stone lock is used for “lifting”. The “light” weight stone lock is used for swinging. The swinging is not for performance. It’s used to train the “pulling” type of throws.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1132271]As far as size goes is that it’s possible to maintain an edge even if the other guy is bigger through superior training, technique, proportional strength advantages, and exploiting your opponent’s weakness. Do you have to be overall stronger than the other guy? - not really, you just have to be stronger in the things that you do very well. Be stronger than his defensive potential say for an omaplata, or ankle lock, or bicep crush or whatever it is that you do very well. That’s where sports specific weight training comes into play.[/QUOTE]
No one is disagreeing with this.
We’re saying all else being equal, bigger and stronger will usually win.
There was a skinny dude in my MMA school. He was like 5’8" and 140 pounds. I was significantly stronger than him and 20 pounds heavier than him. I’m skinny, too, but I mostly do powerlifting type training so I’m stronger than an untrained person of my size.
Anyway, I could hold this dude down so he couldn’t move. I could muscle my way out of his submissions. But eventually he would win because he had been training for 2 years and I had been there for 2 weeks.
The disparity between his technique and my strength was enough that he would always win.
When I would grapple with other noobs who were smaller or weaker, I would almost always win. I didn’t even need technique, I would just brute force my way into submission (which was fun because I’ve always been a small skinny guy, lol, so it was fun to be the strong guy for a change).
When I’d grapple with dudes who were bigger than me and more skilled than me, they would throw me around like a ragdoll. Even if I did the escape correctly or whatever, most of the time it wouldn’t work because they were stronger and they could just toy with me and submit me at their leisure. I would do a takedown and they would just stand there unmoved. Hilarious and pathetic at the same time, yet a great learning experience.
The big guys with no skill were interesting. At 160, grappling with a 200 pound noob was interesting, because my technique had to be extra good in order to work, because he was bigger than me.
It’s about finding what works for you. If you notice that you can consistently beat people your size and smaller, but consistently lose to people who are bigger than you, maybe strength training needs a bit of emphasis. It’s all diminishing returns. A highly skilled person with little strength would see quicker gain from increasing his strength and size than he would from trying to continue to increase his technique. And vice versa for more strength than skill. A noob powerlifter who learns a few techniques will be a much better fighter than a noob powerlifter who gets stronger but doesn’t improve his technique.
“Sport specific weight training” is kind of a pseudo-science. At least it is for those guys doing golf swings on the cable machines. They’re not really improving their golf games, but they’re making their trainers rich.
Ability at a sport comes from neurological efficiency at the movement and strength of the muscles. Most exercises that “simulate your sport” are stupid. Swinging a golf club extension on a cable machine isn’t going to make your golf swing faster or more powerful, but people intuitively assume it will so companies make a ton of money promoting this stuff.
If you want to improve your golf swing, 1) get stronger so your muscles are able to generate more force, and 2) get better at swinging a golf club by refining and perfecting your technique. All these people swinging weighted baseball bats and golf clubs aren’t doing anything. They’re also promoting neural pathways which are different from what they will use when they swing a normal baseball bat or golf club, which isn’t going to improve anything anyway. In other words, they get better at swinging a weighted club… too bad they play with a normal club. It doesn’t transfer over the way people think it does.
“but the normal club feels lighter now!”
Well no kidding, you were just swinging a heavier one. But there’s no transfer of skill or power.
Want to swing a golf club or baseball bat harder?
Get strong so your muscles can generate force quickly and when you need it.
Get good at your skills and techniques.
This post is gold and should be stickied.
he doesnt have problem with strength. he has a phobia of size.
i disagree with sport specific, i think its great. everything i do i try to mimick speicif movement.
i stopped bench pressing and instead do punching with the cable machine. it really improved my punching.
[QUOTE=bawang;1132344]i stopped bench pressing and instead do punching with the cable machine. it really improved my punching.[/QUOTE]
I would wager that in a clinical setting where punching power and speed are measured, there was no change. You are working different neural pathways and there isn’t really any carryover.
The exception would be if you were a noob and happened to develop some strength from the cable machine. That strength is carried over into your normal punching in the same way that strength from any exercise would carry over into your normal punching, but it has nothing to do with the sport-specific aspect of it and has everything to do with the fact that you got a little stronger.
You’d be able to punch a lot harder if you increased your squat, bench press, pullups/rows, and ab strength.
It is important that you continue to train your punching technique when doing this so you don’t lose coordination and neurological efficiency at punching while you are getting stronger.
However, it feels like you can punch better after training with the cable machine.
It’s tricky.
Cheers, brother.
actually man, i saw a clear improvement by looking at how much the heavy bag moved. i also telegraph a lot less.
i feel more connected and fluid because it coordinates my whole body. its not my main training for everything, but its my main training for punching.
i mean, it obviously coordinates your whole body and trains the same muscle memory, and bench press is isolated, so i dont know why you dont believe in it.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1132343]No one is disagreeing with this.
We’re saying all else being equal, bigger and stronger will usually win.
There was a skinny dude in my MMA school. He was like 5’8" and 140 pounds. I was significantly stronger than him and 20 pounds heavier than him. I’m skinny, too, but I mostly do powerlifting type training so I’m stronger than an untrained person of my size.
Anyway, I could hold this dude down so he couldn’t move. I could muscle my way out of his submissions. But eventually he would win because he had been training for 2 years and I had been there for 2 weeks.
The disparity between his technique and my strength was enough that he would always win.
When I would grapple with other noobs who were smaller or weaker, I would almost always win. I didn’t even need technique, I would just brute force my way into submission (which was fun because I’ve always been a small skinny guy, lol, so it was fun to be the strong guy for a change).
When I’d grapple with dudes who were bigger than me and more skilled than me, they would throw me around like a ragdoll. Even if I did the escape correctly or whatever, most of the time it wouldn’t work because they were stronger and they could just toy with me and submit me at their leisure. I would do a takedown and they would just stand there unmoved. Hilarious and pathetic at the same time, yet a great learning experience.
The big guys with no skill were interesting. At 160, grappling with a 200 pound noob was interesting, because my technique had to be extra good in order to work, because he was bigger than me.
It’s about finding what works for you. If you notice that you can consistently beat people your size and smaller, but consistently lose to people who are bigger than you, maybe strength training needs a bit of emphasis. It’s all diminishing returns. A highly skilled person with little strength would see quicker gain from increasing his strength and size than he would from trying to continue to increase his technique. And vice versa for more strength than skill. A noob powerlifter who learns a few techniques will be a much better fighter than a noob powerlifter who gets stronger but doesn’t improve his technique.
“Sport specific weight training” is kind of a pseudo-science. At least it is for those guys doing golf swings on the cable machines. They’re not really improving their golf games, but they’re making their trainers rich.
Ability at a sport comes from neurological efficiency at the movement and strength of the muscles. Most exercises that “simulate your sport” are stupid. Swinging a golf club extension on a cable machine isn’t going to make your golf swing faster or more powerful, but people intuitively assume it will so companies make a ton of money promoting this stuff.
If you want to improve your golf swing, 1) get stronger so your muscles are able to generate more force, and 2) get better at swinging a golf club by refining and perfecting your technique. All these people swinging weighted baseball bats and golf clubs aren’t doing anything. They’re also promoting neural pathways which are different from what they will use when they swing a normal baseball bat or golf club, which isn’t going to improve anything anyway. In other words, they get better at swinging a weighted club… too bad they play with a normal club. It doesn’t transfer over the way people think it does.
“but the normal club feels lighter now!”
Well no kidding, you were just swinging a heavier one. But there’s no transfer of skill or power.
Want to swing a golf club or baseball bat harder?
Get strong so your muscles can generate force quickly and when you need it.
Get good at your skills and techniques.
This post is gold and should be stickied.[/QUOTE]
I’m like you in size - I’m 165lbs and I’m usually tussling with people 180 plus - the largest being 280 :eek: (except that he’s 280 and a slob - so I kill 'em). I don’t feel the strength / skill difference like you do in Jiu Jitsu - the exception being I do go against one skilled monster who ways 240 that, when he gets me in a good hold down, I’m fuked because he’ll gas me. Others, not so much a problem - could be were equal because I train harder. However - I do feel the weight difference in Judo and have to adjust massively how I play against bigger stronger people who are skilled. I go to a sacrifice game, and, because I cross train BJJ - I take 'em down and beat 'em on the floor.
You have the wrong impression of performance training. It’s not weighted golf clubs and baseball bats. It’s whole body stuff - too much to go into, but it’s correcting and training fundamental movements, endurance, balance, agility, etc. Like standing on one foot on a half balance ball. Turkish Get Ups. Standing on one leg when you do a barbell bent-over row. Throwing a medicine ball as high as you can catching it placing it on the floor in front of you doing a push up on the ball picking up the ball and throwing it up in the air again to start the next rep, olympic style lifts like the clean and jerk…
[QUOTE=IronFist;1132340]Again, untrained bodybuilders don’t prove or disprove anything.[/quote]
Total strawman. I’m sorry, but in the field I worked in, I was always around people who did bodybuilding and weight lifting. This is way more true than in office work. I’m scoffing at this idea that people need to worry about body builders. The odds of meeting a qualified bodybuilder who also can fight at all, outside of a martial arts school, is zero.
Noob bodybuilders showing up at a construction site where people who are conditioned and have been doing the work for years are performing better than them doesn’t prove anything.
Not noob bodybuilders in many cases. No construction worker likes being paired with an inexperienced guy when doing muscle work. It’s a fact. They don’t care if it’s a body builder.
Who makes fun of noobs because they suck at things?
It’s the culture of the people who make the things you use and the places you live in. It would be foolish to confuse it with disrespect too easily.
Guess what? Skinny people get tapped out on their first day of class, too!
I made the case that the same thing happens to skinny people who can’t hack it at the job at first.
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, actually.
I was clear, that this argument raised several times about tma people needing to fear weightlifters is bunk. Statistically speaking, and in reality, as a construction worker, I’ve worked among more weight lifters, more ex-cons, more alcoholics, and more of society’s dregs than any office worker. I’ve worked in heinous neighborhoods, at bad hours. Weight lifters are not a group any more likely to have a clue in fighting than any other, period. And serious weightlifters with families and lives often don’t have time for martial arts. They’re the least important group to worry about for anyone but the insecure.
But if there are two fighters of equal skill, my money is on the bigger and stronger one every time.
Most people who do fight training do some form of ST, even if an inefficient one.
Most people who do ST don’t train fighting AT ALL, EVER.
Sometimes the bigger one isn’t stronger, although the bigger one probably has better muscular endurance. A 150 pound powerlifter who can bench 350 and a 200 pound bodybuilder who can bench 315, if it was a contest to see who can rep 225 the most, I think the 200 pound guy would win.
I just arbitrarily picked those numbers.
Understood.
But geez, some of you guys are making it sound like bodybuilders are weaker than the general population. And slower and inflexible. lol.
My point is they are generally not good at applying their strength in new ways, just like anyone else, and that, for the most part, they are a segment of the population more interested in getting laid than fight training, which is to their merit, as it saves them time arguing about stupid sh1t online.
Bodybuilders are worse at stuff they haven’t specifically trained for than people who have specifically trained for it. That’s no surprise. That’s why you guys tap them out when they are noobs and you have been training for years.
I bet bodybuilders are worse at guitar on their first day of lessons than someone who has been plying for 5 years.
I also bet bodybuilders are worse at fixing cars on their first day than people who have been mechanics for 15 years.
Wow, from this we can deduce that bodybuilding makes you bad at playing guitar and fixing cars!
Come on.
Exactly, and since the chances they’ve trained for any sort of fighting are aproaching zero, they are not a concern.
Even if I was fighting an untrained fighter, I’d prefer he be a skinny dude rather than a bodybuilder or some other sort of big, strong guy.
I remember freshman year in college there was this guy on our floor who had been lifting weights for a few years and was bigger (bulkier) than everyone else.
Another guy on our floor did kung fu and had a rebreakable board. One day we were messing around holding the board for each other and breaking it and stuff, and the weight lifter dude said he wanted to try.
My friend held it while the weight lifter punched it. He broke it ok, but with really strange form, like he had never punched before and was just trying to muscle his way through it.
Like I said, it got the job done, and I’m sure it would hurt to be hit by that punch. But he obviously wasn’t trained and probably wouldn’t have done too well in a boxing fight.
Train that guy to throw a punch and to fight and he’ll be a formidable, strong fighter.
Coordinated strong people are scary.
Bodybuilders often seem to suck at new things for a couple reason:
people naturally assume they will be awesome, so they get a little more flack for sucking than a skinny person would
as a result of their bodybuilding training, they are good at specific things (the muscular endurance and time under tension required for hypertrophy). Many of them don’t have much cardio ability and tire easily. Cardio burns calories and is counterproductive to their goals sometimes. This is much like a marathoner who cannot squat a lot; because of his training, he is very good at one thing: running distances. Ask him to do 6 sets of curls with 75% of his 1RM and he might not be able to finish it.
some of them who do only weight lifting and have no other sport experience can be awkward when they first start playing a sport due to lack of body awareness. See #1.
a tendency to muscle through stuff, because usually they can. In grappling class, the noobs would always tire after a few minutes of grappling because they’re trying to use strength the entire time. The more advanced people just wait it out. Of course, once they learn when to use their strength, it becomes a huge advantage
Man, back when I was like 18 I used to talk crap about weight lifting and bodybuilders. I really did think they were slow, inflexible, and basically every other TMA myth there is. It’s like “pssh, I’d hit that guy 3 times before he even finished his first punch.” And my favorite “I don’t wanna get too big” (as if it’s so easy to just accidentally bulk up and wake up looking like Arnold) 
Good thing I never got in a fight. I would’ve gotten destroyed
[QUOTE=IronFist;1132379]Even if I was fighting an untrained fighter, I’d prefer he be a skinny dude rather than a bodybuilder or some other sort of big, strong guy.
I remember freshman year in college there was this guy on our floor who had been lifting weights for a few years and was bigger (bulkier) than everyone else.
Another guy on our floor did kung fu and had a rebreakable board. One day we were messing around holding the board for each other and breaking it and stuff, and the weight lifter dude said he wanted to try.
My friend held it while the weight lifter punched it. He broke it ok, but with really strange form, like he had never punched before and was just trying to muscle his way through it.
Like I said, it got the job done, and I’m sure it would hurt to be hit by that punch. But he obviously wasn’t trained and probably wouldn’t have done too well in a boxing fight.
Train that guy to throw a punch and to fight and he’ll be a formidable, strong fighter.
Coordinated strong people are scary.
Bodybuilders often seem to suck at new things for a couple reason:
people naturally assume they will be awesome, so they get a little more flack for sucking than a skinny person would
as a result of their bodybuilding training, they are good at specific things (the muscular endurance and time under tension required for hypertrophy). Many of them don’t have much cardio ability and tire easily. Cardio burns calories and is counterproductive to their goals sometimes. This is much like a marathoner who cannot squat a lot; because of his training, he is very good at one thing: running distances. Ask him to do 6 sets of curls with 75% of his 1RM and he might not be able to finish it.
some of them who do only weight lifting and have no other sport experience can be awkward when they first start playing a sport due to lack of body awareness. See #1.
a tendency to muscle through stuff, because usually they can. In grappling class, the noobs would always tire after a few minutes of grappling because they’re trying to use strength the entire time. The more advanced people just wait it out. Of course, once they learn when to use their strength, it becomes a huge advantage
Man, back when I was like 18 I used to talk crap about weight lifting and bodybuilders. I really did think they were slow, inflexible, and basically every other TMA myth there is. It’s like “pssh, I’d hit that guy 3 times before he even finished his first punch.” And my favorite “I don’t wanna get too big” (as if it’s so easy to just accidentally bulk up and wake up looking like Arnold)
Good thing I never got in a fight. I would’ve gotten destroyed :D[/QUOTE]
I understand where you’re coming from, I thought the same, but that was a long time ago, and was before I ever trained kung fu, so the association to kung fu doesn’t exit for me. I see no conflict between the two.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1131591]So how do TCMA do it?
You will find that BOTH methods are used in TCMA.
Modern equipment is not used where in the past, stone or wooden versions of “barbells, dumbells, keetlebells”, were used.
Older TCMA training manuals show pictures of weight lifting as a crucial part of strength building in TCMA of all kinds.
Then we have static stance training, progressing from BW only to weight being added on, for the development of strong legs and balance.
The lifting of sand bags, stones, wooden logs, to build all around strength.
And we also have isometic exercises being done and within forms such as the “iron wire”, the various “sanjian/sam chien, sarm bo gin” forms we find iso-kinetic exercises being performed.[/QUOTE]
This was the start of the thread. I’m thinking I missed the part where someone said “kung fu guys should fear the invincible bodybuilders.”
Is the idea of training in the same way as an experienced, hypertrophy-oriented bodybuilder good for martial arts, TMA or MMA?
Of course not.
Is the idea of training using general physical preparation (overall physical health, strength, power) WITH skill-SPECIFIC work a better idea of MA?
Of course.
If the idea that ONLY skill-specific strength is needed and all other factors can be ignored is the prevalent one, then I am completely lost, and would like to see the light.
[QUOTE=Vash;1132393]
Is the idea of training using general physical preparation (overall physical health, strength, power) WITH skill-SPECIFIC work a better idea of MA?
Of course.[/quote]
Agreed.
If the idea that ONLY skill-specific strength is needed and all other factors can be ignored is the prevalent one, then I am completely lost, and would like to see the light.
I don’t think that’s the idea. It’s just easier to argue silly sh1t while waiting for YKW to post the next cool exercise from his repertoire.
hey guys, since started squatting my thighs are crushing my balls. can anyone help me
how do u guys deal with your muscular thighs crushing your balls
[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1132273]What he is describing is literally weight lifting. What lifts would he do generally that will equate to that strength? I could see something cable related, just curious if you know of something that would hit the same way.[/QUOTE]
yep i know something that would hit it even better, its called doing your sport, strength should be built generally, maximum lifts to overload the body and make it adapt to the new stresses, and then do your sport to make it sports specific, its not that hard, nothing really replicates your sports so why bother, why not simply do your sport
[QUOTE=Frost;1132431]yep i know something that would hit it even better, its called doing your sport, strength should be built generally, maximum lifts to overload the body and make it adapt to the new stresses, and then do your sport to make it sports specific, its not that hard, nothing really replicates your sports so why bother, why not simply do your sport[/QUOTE]
BINGO!!! This post wins the prize. It’s basically my point. I think our “argument” is in definition. When I think of the term “BodyBuilding”, or “BodyBuilder” - it’s different - it’s its own discipline and one, that to me, has very little to do with MA. Weight and Strength Training is something you do for your sport. BodyBuilding is it’s own sport.
[QUOTE=Frost;1132431]why not simply do your sport[/QUOTE]
You can’t do your sport 24/7. If you are a
There is a limitation by using your opponent to develop your skill. You just can’t develop your knock down power by punching on your opponent’s head daily. The “heavy bag” is designed for good reason.
The important of a “heavy bag” for a striker is the same as the important of a “XYZ” for a grappler.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1132446]BINGO!!! This post wins the prize. It’s basically my point. I think our “argument” is in definition. When I think of the term “BodyBuilding”, or “BodyBuilder” - it’s different - it’s its own discipline and one, that to me, has very little to do with MA. Weight and Strength Training is something you do for your sport. BodyBuilding is it’s own sport.[/QUOTE]
people use body building methods without bodybuilding and it is something you should do for your sport from time to time for specific goals, which most coaches recognise
At 4.40, you can see another TCMA weight training.
I’ve once read an article on the web on how bodybuilding routines can help you increase the potential gains of more strenght-focused exercises. I don’t know how accurate this is tho, as it was based on the author’s personal experience.