Building strength the TCMA way

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
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[QUOTE=IronFist;1131807]I fully agree with John Allen (of Green Dragon Studios, who used to write for Inside Kung Fu) who said that the majority of kung fu students lack the strength required to make their techniques work.[/QUOTE]

You need ENOUGH muscle to make them work. But you don’t have to grow to excess and follow a bodybuilder paradigm, as Sanjuro pointed out.

You still need SPEED. I put on 40 pounds since I began lifting. when it came time to break for my rank, I figured it was a sure thing.

I was so stiff, that I bounced right off the first try. I just tried to muscle my way through the blocks.

Gain some muscle…add some speed.

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[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1131818]Gain some muscle…add some speed.[/QUOTE]

The Yin and the Yang!

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I’ve never seen a case where muscular size limited speed or flexibility.

Regarding speed, while the new muscle weighs more, it’s also giving you more strength with which to move it. It’s not like you just strapped on some weights while keeping your old strength levels. It’s similar to doing an engine swap in a car and saying “oh, that new, bigger engine with more displacement weighs more. It’s going to slow me down!” Well, now your car weighs more, but you’re making a lot more horsepower, too, so the extra weight doesn’t matter.

Then there’s the aspect of strength/speed that is neurological in nature and has nothing to do with muscle size.

But I think it makes sense to continue training your martial skills while you are building size, otherwise it might feel different and take you a little while to get used to your new body, so to speak.

Then again, most people do not have the genetics to even approach the levels of “oh no, I’m putting on too much muscle.”

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[QUOTE=IronFist;1131828]I’ve never seen a case where muscular size limited speed or flexibility.

Then again, most people do not have the genetics to even approach the levels of “oh no, I’m putting on too much muscle.”[/QUOTE]

I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1131592]I agree 100%. However, my experience with peeps who lift is 75%-80% lift improperly for MA. Many lift and get bulky, especially in their arms and shoulders. In my personal experiences, bulky arms and shoulders reduce free swinging arm rotation from the shoulder joint. The CMA I learned requires arm swing techniques such cup choy or dai fan che to swivel from the shoulder and not be “muscled thru”. This “muscling thru” is the wrong type of energy for this particular technique.

Strength is very important and increasing strength thru various resistance programs is great. I can’t emphasize enough on proper strength training and stretching to reduce this type of attitude of I can just lift more and get stronger so I don’t have to worry about technique or style.

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

ginosifu

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[QUOTE=ginosifu;1131846]I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:

It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

I would say that is more of a result of not stretching. All the cases I have seen in which someone was “muscle bound” was because all they did was lift hard and heavy which tears down the tissue and never had a stretching component to their lifting to lengthen the tissue back.

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[QUOTE=bawang;1131743]building strength the tcma way:

three eyed god lifts the mountain: squat
holding the heavens: shoulder press
thousand pound crusher: squat press
hunyuan ball: atlas ball
presenting the iron seal/diamond god uproots tree: deadlift[/QUOTE]

Good post, I have looked at many of the “old methods” and you are quite right, they almost all have a modern strength training lift equivolant.

Even if you go to the old Okinawan training methods that aren’t used much they used items that are replicated by modern dumbbells and barbells in many cases.

As always there is nothing new under the sun…and what was old will become new again and vice versa.

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I think that part of the lack of strength training in many modern “traditional arts” (even though traditionally they had them) is due to people not wanting to work hard.

It’s easier to market your skills that anyone can do it and the infamous “90 lb. weakling” beating up the big strong guy with no effort than it is to say how hard you are going to have to work to get really good at it.

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Over the years I have found this to be the case:
With proper ST, one never loses speed or flexibility and does actually gain.
Most people NEVER get proper ST advice.
Most people that start doing weights do so to get bigger and stronger, in that ordr and they tend to do “hypertrophy” ( mass) inducing programs AND eat accordingly.
They also, at times, sacrifice their MA for ST ( I know that I to have been guilty of this).
As a result, they get bigger, stronger, but slower and more “stiff”.

Of course we have REAL world examples of “bulky” but still super fast ( sprinters) and super flexible ( Gymnasts and Modern MA athletes).

An ideal ST protocol for a MA NOT looking to increase mass and weight ( they go hand-in-hand) but looking to get strong is a low rep/high intensity ( heavy weights) followed by stretching after the routine ( along with consistent MA training).
In other words: a customized powerlifting routine done 2X a week and MA training the rest of the time.

We need to always remember that high weight and low reps = strength and very little mass.
Moderate weight and moderate reps = mass and some strength

High reps and low weight = muscular endurance, low strength and low mass

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[QUOTE=IronFist;1131807
But as long as the people are doing something to get stronger, that puts them way ahead of the “traditional” TMA crew who believes such nonsense as:

  • muscles make you slow
  • muscles make you inflexible
  • “lift with your tendons”
  • you don’t need muscle strength because you have qi
  • you don’t need to use strength; you need to use technique (sure, technique beats strength if the other guy is a noob, but if you’re both equally good, then strength will often determine the winner, and I dare say there are situations where a very skilled dude who is weak may be defeated by a strong noob, eg., a 140 pound TMA black belt fighting a 250 pound weightlifting street thug)
    [/QUOTE]

The fuck says this shit? Seriously. I’ve never heard of anyone in cma saying anything like this until I came here. I understand you might still be a little resentful because you got royally grafted but please stop projecting this utter bullshit on to us.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1131872]Over the years I have found this to be the case:
With proper ST, one never loses speed or flexibility and does actually gain.
[/QUOTE]

this has been my experience. I didn’t start any weight training until I was an adult and after I had already been training kungfu for some time. I came here and got advice, and used it. I got stronger, a little bigger and I got faster. It elevated my power in every respect. I’m not a power lifter or bodybuilder, I just try to supplement my martial art.

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if you lift properly, using full range of motion, you can actually increase flexibility, rather than lose it.
If you train explosive movements, you can increase speed.
When you are powerlifting, the act of getting the weight in motion from a standstill is actually an explosive movement, although to the eye it may not seem so.
Stiff, musclebound people in Martial Arts are usually the case of a non-martial artist, who trained with weights first, rather than the other way around. Once you are trained, you know how to relax.

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[QUOTE=wenshu;1131882]The fuck says this shit? Seriously. I’ve never heard of anyone in cma saying anything like this until I came here. I understand you might still be a little resentful because you got royally grafted but please stop projecting this utter bullshit on to us.[/QUOTE]

In the early 2000s, this training forum was super active with dozens of posts per day or more in the most active threads.

The were a lot of people who would go on and on about how weightlifting is bad for the reasons I stated.

Back in the day, nearly every TMAist I spoke with in real life was also that way. In the 90s it was worse, and in the 70s-80s it was horrible.

Now, with the proliferation of MMA, people are starting to realize that “hey, maybe weight training isn’t bad” and “holy crap, if I fight a big muscular skilled guy, I’m screwed.”

There are still a lot of “traditional” schools, however, that preach the weights are bad/lift with your tendons nonsense. Usually these schools don’t spar or train against resisting opponents, either.

If you’ve never heard that, then you probably train at a pretty good school and associate with other knowledgeable martial artists.

Relax though, dude. This is a friendly forum.

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All the fastest athletes in the world do strength training and ALL of them use weights in one way or another.
Big muscles don’t equal lack of flexibility, case in point the study done that showed olympic lifters to be the most flexible of athletes in the hip and knee area ( if I recall the study correctly) and this:

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[QUOTE=ginosifu;1131846]I would have to dis agree with this statement. I have been teaching kung fu for almost 20 years. During this time I have seen 75%-80% of all guys who lift, lift wrong for CMA. It is not just about the size but more about the range of motion. When your upper arms and shoulder get more muscular, they lose range of motion. I spoke of it here:[/quote]

I’ve never noticed a loss of range of motion, ever. Even in upper echelon bodybuilders, many of them are quite flexible; certainly not less flexible that someone who doesn’t lift weights.

Can you give me an example of the area of motion that was lost? For example, someone who used to be able to do x movement/position and then bulked up and now can no longer do x movement/position.

There is no scientific evidence anywhere that increased muscle in the upper arms and shoulders reduces range of motion.

The rare exceptions to this might be elite level bodybuilders when it gets to the point that the actual mass is just getting in the way, but let’s not forget that almost nobody has the genetics to get there, not to mention the drug budget or knowledge.

A normal person with normal genetics is in almost no danger of losing flexibility due to muscle mass gain.

This guy certainly doesn’t have flexibility issues:

Nor does this guy:

And even if there was a loss in flexibility (there’s not), but even if there was, it would be a small price to pay for the benefits that added muscle has in a fight.

If any loss of range of motion occurs, it would occur around this level:

The only way to get there is with:

  1. the right genetics
  2. the right training
  3. the right diet
  4. the right drugs

So that’s not going to happen for most people, nor is it going to happen accidentally. It’s not like you lift weights and end up bulky the next day.

If someone has a healthy amount of muscle, such as this guy, there’s not going to be any loss of range of motion unless the person neglected their stretching or something while they were lifting weights:

But most martial artists aren’t even in that good of shape, so I really don’t think they have anything to worry about.

It is important to get proper lifting advise or training. Just to go and lift heavy weights cuz you want to get big and strong may not be good for your MA.

I guess let’s agree to disagree. Again, I’ve never seen a case where the addition of muscle and/or strength decreased MA performance.

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Old school ST - Carrying 5 gal pails of mud, 1 in each hand sometimes 2 in each down a plank and then having to lift them over your head and dump them. Carrying / stacking 12” block, stacking 12” block from the ground on the scaffold 5 or 6 high.
Wheelbarrow concrete, pulling yards of concrete with a come along, finishing concrete, any chimney work. I could go on forever.
Muscles worked – chest, back, legs, stomach/core, shoulders and of course a killer grip.

Find a job as a Mason or Mason laborer, you might regret getting yelled at all day..lol but you won’t regret the fact that it puts muscles in your ****.

I don’t know… worked for my MA ST

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[QUOTE=IronFist;1131948]I’ve never noticed a loss of range of motion, ever. Even in upper echelon bodybuilders, many of them are quite flexible; certainly not less flexible that someone who doesn’t lift weights.

Can you give me an example of the area of motion that was lost? For example, someone who used to be able to do x movement/position and then bulked up and now can no longer do x movement/position.

There is no scientific evidence anywhere that increased muscle in the upper arms and shoulders reduces range of motion.

I guess let’s agree to disagree. Again, I’ve never seen a case where the addition of muscle and/or strength decreased MA performance.[/QUOTE]

IronFist:
I do not have a any degree’s in Physical Education or Body Science. I can only speak from personal experience. Whether it from improper Lifting or not stretching I can not say, but in most cases the student that does some type of Arm / Shoulder / Upper Back (Shoulder) etc etc exercise, comes to practice and can no longer swivel from their shoulder joint. Instead of having a straight arm and swinging it from the shoulder (my example would a downward arcing motion some people call this cup choi), instead they bend their arms and muscle it thru.

This may be not from lifting, but the ability to relax the area? It could be from the muscle not being stretched out properly? I don’t know exactly why they do it, but time and time after time peeps come into my school, start lifting and get stiff? There have been those who have come and lifted properly who look like those pics Ronin put up of the Running Athlete who is cut, but muscular. And can do demonstrate the proper execution of the arm swinging technique.

ginosifu

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Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it’s awkward. There’s a difference between a gymnast’s body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast’s body.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1132004] we want the gymnast’s body.[/QUOTE]

My daughter has the gymnast’s body. She doesn’t have much muscle, but I can’t do what she does.

http://natashawang.com/

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1132004]Those pics are so g@y.

Be strong enough to do what you want to do. Sport Specific training is better than body building. Body builders are usually the biggest douches in the kwoon. They look like jack offs and usually are jack offs. The guys who weight train and do sport specific stuff are usually lean, not bulky. Bulky is bulky and it’s awkward. There’s a difference between a gymnast’s body and the Muscle Beach body and how it functions. As martial artists, we want the gymnast’s body.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, cause a gymanst body isn’t bulky at all: