[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1297450]Okay I emailed Leo. Hopefully he will bring me up to speed and tell me what he remembers. Or not ? LOL some don’t write back.[/QUOTE]
"
No reply yet. He probably wont. More important things in his life than this. “But if I had a camera in his face.” Hint to anyone that lives near him.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1296886]Getting back to Bruce Lee never sparred anyone. Again it is simply bullcrap that all of a sudden people believe the story. Tell it long enough and that’s the new truth. Just ask Emil Farkas ( him still being alive and having witnessed) about what happened to Champion Joe Lewis’s legs when he was( not ) sparring Bruce Lee.
Ask George Dillman ( I know well he was once a top competitor and rather good across the board ) about Lee never sparring him and kicking all over the place. George knows about and also witnessed much concerning Lee. I know, Karate guys. Well those were the people accepting Bruce since he upset the local Chinese community. Don’t ask Chuck. He does not tell the complete truth.
Again the point being is he was respected by the fighting community of that day. Regardless what was said after his death with Joe saying we never sparred, lmfao, wait, we did spar and I got popped. Bruce would glove up with anyone. He had a great disdain for tag but he understood that game probably better than most and would you not suspect Lewis and Stone and Norris went to Bruce because he was talking about how I can touch you without proving it ? Believe what you want but Bruce touched those guys a lot and hard. Playing their game with them and his evolving game at least with Lewis.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never heard anyone say he never sparred. But other than wong jack man, there is no evidence of actual fights, street, full contact, etc. - that I have heard several times.
A Second Trip?
Greetings,
While most historians acknowledge that Bruce learned from Shiu Hon Sang before coming to America, forum member Sil Lum Fighter contributed that Bruce Lee sought instruction from Shiu Hon Sang after his fight with WJM. Unfortunately,Sil Lum Fighter shared that Bruce Lee learned forms that did not differ from those Bruce supposedly learned Before he left Hong Kong. The only possible evidence of a second trip came from Dan Inosanto. When he discussing the forms that Bruce taught in his curriculum he mentioned “Tom Toy” (Tan Tui). Shiu Hon Sang never mentioned teaching him that nor did he ever say that Bruce came back for more instruction.
mickey
The guy in this video here (Hung Sing Kwoon SF) is the person who blocked all of bruce lee’s punches on stage in a theater in SF.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1297492]I’ve never heard anyone say he never sparred. But other than wong jack man, there is no evidence of actual fights, street, full contact, etc. - that I have heard several times.[/QUOTE]
Joe himself had stated that numerous times that he never sparred him over the years of course then he says different at other times. I believe Joe once stated never had a street fight in his life. So is Joe someone to dismiss unless he speaks of point or full contact karate ?
Well you can ask Danny Inosanto but it is doubtful he will talk about it anymore but you never know ? Jesse Glover is dead now but he wrote and spoke about it.
One the Japanese karate guy.
Nope. He did not compete. Did Wong Jack Man ? Yip Man ? Ed Parker ? Heck I could list likely hundreds of guys considered great that never competed. World class street fighters or masters that for all intent purpose did nothing but teach. Wait, someone saw Yip Man knock a guy out. Well I say bull****! Someone was (actually a few) were there when Parker locks his doors and beat the shiyte out of a guy that came in causing trouble. Ya Right , he was fat oldman with white hair. A few witnessed Wong Jack Man fight Bruce Lee but I think it was made up to sell a movie that’s coming out soon ! Jesse said. Danny said. They all lying. Yip man was a chain smoker who weighed 95lbs. Hmm ? Deadly huh ? He could not have had any real skills. WJM was all of 125 for the BL fight. Maybe someone should have dragged those 2 hungry kids into a biker bar and schooled them ? Would either have lasted a minute in a local boxing gym ? It all just gets silly as f–ck when we look at it from all concoevable angles and drop all bias. Really Yip Man was a skinny chain smoker heroin junkie or opium or whatever. Master Yip. Bet him and I get along great. Ill give him some vics and he gives me some opium. Hell yes Ill smoke up with Yip. Sit around chain smoking and sipping tea and complaining how BL makes WC look bad. Possibly lost to some Man kid who may be related to me someplace down the line. Aint that a kick in the ass.
By the way I have as much respect and admiration for WJM as BL. I know more of BL. I want to know as much TRUTH as possible. Regardless if it make Bruce or Wong look bad or good. Truth. Mostly we get educated guesses. Thats likely as good as it will ever be.
Anyway, you guys see this yet ?
//youtu.be/SGEPa-pkVdA
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1297494]The guy in this video here (Hung Sing Kwoon SF) is the person who blocked all of bruce lee’s punches on stage in a theater in SF.
//youtu.be/HObQVRqrrhQ
[/QUOTE]
Thanks a lot for posting that, Frank!
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1297497]Thanks a lot for posting that, Frank![/QUOTE]
That was a nice clip. Compass and Square too. Jacques boy here.
[QUOTE=mickey;1297493]Greetings,
While most historians acknowledge that Bruce learned from Shiu Hon Sang before coming to America, forum member Sil Lum Fighter contributed that Bruce Lee sought instruction from Shiu Hon Sang after his fight with WJM. Unfortunately,Sil Lum Fighter shared that Bruce Lee learned forms that did not differ from those Bruce supposedly learned Before he left Hong Kong. The only possible evidence of a second trip came from Dan Inosanto. When he discussing the forms that Bruce taught in his curriculum he mentioned “Tom Toy” (Tan Tui). Shiu Hon Sang never mentioned teaching him that nor did he ever say that Bruce came back for more instruction.
mickey[/QUOTE]
The BL/WJM fight was in 1964.
Hawkins Cheung said he saw Lee back in HK 1964.
I returned to Hong Kong in 1964. One day, as I was ready to drive my car out of my parking space in the street, I saw someone toward my left window. I couldn’t see this person’s face. I thought that this person was loocking for trouble, and I opened the car door ready to fight. I then saw it was Bruce. I was so happy to see him, and just as I was about to say “Hello!” he said’ “Hawkins, stand here, I have something to show you.” Bruce stepped back two steps and suddenly charged in very quickly. I was surprised that his movement was so fast.
Another surprise was that Bruce’s character hadn’t changed at all. He still wanted to be top dog. He still wanted to show off. If he liked you, he would always tell you what was on his mind.
[…]
I asked him how he developed the ability to close in that quickly. He said’ “Look, Hawkins, in the United States you don’t have any good training partners to practice wing chun with. You can say that my wing chun is better than any so called wing chun masters there. I can’t go any further. But I have had a lot of challenge fights. My opponents are fast, so I have to be faster; they’re strong, so I have to he stronger than them. There’s no other way, because in the U.S., I’m a ‘gung-fu’ guy. Because my wing chun is limited and my structure can’t hold up against larger opponents, I have to use no way as the way, no limitation as the limitation.”
[…]
Bruce continued: “I have to train very hard to beat my opponents. So I’ve come back to further my training in wing chun, and I hope to learn more of the dummy techniques from the old man (Yip Man). Hopefully, sifu will let me film him on 8mm so that I may show my students in the U.S.” Bruce said his acting career was beginning to take off. “By the way,” he noted, “I just signed a contract with 20th Century Fox to do a ‘Charlie Chan’ movie (it later turned out to be the “Green Hornet” series). I’m on my way to see the old man now.” I knew that when he wanted to accomplish a task, I’d better not get in his way, so I left.
A few days later, Bruce gave a demonstration on a popular talk show on television. Bruce didn’t mention anything about wing chun, but referred to his art simply as “gung-fu.” I realized that something must have happened between Bruce and Yip Man. I knew Bruce’s character, and when he desired or wanted something accomplished, no one could stop him. If not, Bruce would go out on his own to get the job done. Bruce would then come back and show you and try to embarrass you.
I found out that the “old man” refused his request to be filmed doing the dummy set. I knew that the “old man” was very Chinese tradition minded and that Bruce was very direct and Western in his thinking. Bruce wanted to learn everything overnight, but the ‘old man” felt you had to train to get it. Later on, I found that Bruce formed his own method and called it ‘jeet kune do.”
So Lee specifically went back to HK trying to find a way to make up for his limitations. And he talked about other people being fast.
Interesting that Lee was concerned about speed, and the first thing he showed HC was his new closing/intercepting footwork. That would have been a key piece if he is concerned about fighting Northern systems.
Northern leg, Southern fist. Northern leg is not just kicking. It is even more so about footwork, mobility, and being able to overrun your opponent.
Considering Northern footwork, I’ve always had the opinion that WJM didn’t want to hurt Lee, and tried to stay just out of range, which frustrated Lee because he didn’t have the mobility needed to deal with Northern footwork.
And you don’t need Tan Tui to develop Northern style closing ability. You can learn enough in 15 minutes. But you have to train it 10,000 times to be able to use it. The way most people do Tan Tui wouldn’t help anyway.
Sounds like Lee picked up some footwork pointers.
More likely it was from Shiu than from Yip Man.
If my student came back to me after mouthing off and getting into challenge matches, and asked to film some forms/techniques, I’d tell him to GTFO too.
[QUOTE=-N-;1297499]So Lee specifically went back to HK trying to find a way to make up for his limitations. And he talked about other people being fast.
Interesting that Lee was concerned about speed, and the first thing he showed HC was his new closing/intercepting footwork. That would have been a key piece if he is concerned about fighting Northern systems.
Northern leg, Southern fist. Northern leg is not just kicking. It is even more so about footwork, mobility, and being able to overrun your opponent.
Considering Northern footwork, I’ve always had the opinion that WJM didn’t want to hurt Lee, and tried to stay just out of range, which frustrated Lee because he didn’t have the mobility needed to deal with Northern footwork.
And you don’t need Tan Tui to develop Northern style closing ability. You can learn enough in 15 minutes. But you have to train it 10,000 times to be able to use it. The way most people do Tan Tui wouldn’t help anyway.[/QUOTE]
Good points.
One of the things that makes a style like CLF great (for example), is that, although it’s a southern style, it’s a combination of both northern and southern KF. And yes, limiting “Northern Leg” to kicking is a BIG oversimplification. There is footwork not only in moving in/out/to the side, but also the way the legs are used during throwing. BL would definitely not have gotten that from Ip Man.
Personally, I don’t really care for the “Southern Fist, Northern Leg” phrase. I prefer to think of application of KF as using the entire body as a unit, as opposed to mentally compartmentalizing different aspects. When the latter occurs, it’s easy to over-kick during sparring/fighting, when it’s not appropriate, or to likewise only punch when combining various skills would work better.
BL was influenced a lot by western fencing in his footwork.
Funny that Hawkins Cheung says that he and BL wanted to learn N. Shaolin just for ‘flash’. The fact is, if you are well-trained and have a deep understanding of what you’re doing, ANY system can be made effective, not just WC. Their mentality at the time showed how young they were.
bruce lee obviously lost in some way because he quit wing chun after the fight and he kept trying to get people to teach him dynamic northern systems
its obv he got salty and got shunned from kung fu community and he tried to recreate northern dynamic system with savate boxing and fencing
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1297502]Good points.
One of the things that makes a style like CLF great (for example), is that, although it’s a southern style, it’s a combination of both northern and southern KF. And yes, limiting “Northern Leg” to kicking is a BIG oversimplification. There is footwork not only in moving in/out/to the side, but also the way the legs are used during throwing. BL would definitely not have gotten that from Ip Man.
Personally, I don’t really care for the “Southern Fist, Northern Leg” phrase. I prefer to think of application of KF as using the entire body as a unit, as opposed to mentally compartmentalizing different aspects. When the latter occurs, it’s easy to over-kick during sparring/fighting, when it’s not appropriate, or to likewise only punch when combining various skills would work better.
BL was influenced a lot by western fencing in his footwork.
Funny that Hawkins Cheung says that he and BL wanted to learn N. Shaolin just for ‘flash’. The fact is, if you are well-trained and have a deep understanding of what you’re doing, ANY system can be made effective, not just WC. Their mentality at the time showed how young they were.[/QUOTE]
northern systems come from 20 provinces. southern systems come from 3. american southern kung fu come from one city.
north south dichotomy in kung fu refers to jiangsu province. jiangsu longfist likes punching. below jiangsu nobody trained any martial arts.
[QUOTE=-N-;1297499]The BL/WJM fight was in 1964.
Hawkins Cheung said he saw Lee back in HK 1964.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry. Just saw that I didn’t post the link.
http://hawkinscheung.com/wp/about/
Interview was published in IKF in 1991.
Greetings,
-N-, I dod not realize the link had more than one page. I read the rest a couple of days ago. There was a second trip. There could have been more.
There is the possibility of 8 mm footage of Shiu Hon Sang at the Lee Estate. The footwork that Bruce demonstrated to Hawkins Cheung gives more insight to the fight. WJM was not running all over the place. He was using stepping, shifting and dodging, defensive methods associated with the Northern styles. Those unfamiliar with such methods may have viewed WJM as running away. Bruce may have gassed out from hitting so much air, something that affects boxers as well.
There was no win or loss with the BL/WJM fight. There was only one thing: BRUCE LEE FAILED. He failed to destroy his opponent and achieve fame and a stream of students as a result of so. Giving the aforementioned good thought, I gained an understanding that was both karmic and diabolical: Bruce was willing to kill in order to achieve fame and fortune; and, when fame and fortune was finally about to come his way, he dies.
mickey
[QUOTE=-N-;1297524]Sorry. Just saw that I didn’t post the link.
http://hawkinscheung.com/wp/about/
Interview was published in IKF in 1991.[/QUOTE]
well that explains it
bribed someone and learned 3 forms in 2 months
[QUOTE=mickey;1297528]The footwork that Bruce demonstrated to Hawkins Cheung gives more insight to the fight. WJM was not running all over the place. He was using stepping, shifting and dodging, defensive methods associated with the Northern styles. Those unfamiliar with such methods may have viewed WJM as running away. Bruce may have gassed out from hitting so much air, something that affects boxers as well.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like BL really didn’t have a good understanding of Northern styles or its footwork. Especially if he picked up some N. Shaolin before leaving HK thinking just to have something fancy/showy to teach.
And what Bawang said, 3 sets in 2 months.
So BL had minimal background in Shaolin, but constantly criticized it as ineffective. That’s no different than how some KF guys criticize boxing without really understanding it.
If WJM was literally running and putting distance between them, there would have been no reason for BL to punch himself out from missing. And how much room was there to run anyway? Wouldn’t you just say to the person, “Did you come to fight, or to run away?”
More likely, WJM was doing just enough to evade BL. And BL gassed himself out of frustration and rage.
Even Hawkings Cheung had to turn to karate to pick up mid/long range footwork.
How about this scenario…
BL showed up in Chinatown with some skills and ****ed everybody off with all his trash talking.
Someone like Lau Bun isn’t going to personally kick his @ss. A person at that level has nothing to gain from fighting some mouthy kid that knew some WC. If he anihilates Lee, he would be criticized for picking on a lesser person. If he held back, people would say he lost.
WJM was a noob. He was convenient to put up to respond to BL. BL couldn’t shut down WJM’s school, but Chinatown kf community could. If BL beat WJM, then tough luck. If WJM beat BL, then Lee wouldn’t be able to trash talk any more.
WJM probably had nothing personal against BL. He probably had to pay his dues to be allowed to keep his school open. That could be why he doesn’t talk about the fight. To not drag the names of others into it. That could be why when he was asked several times if he won, he answered by saying that his sign was still up outside his school. That’s all he wanted, just to have his school.
That situation with the noob teacher being tested was pretty common. When my teacher first established himself in SF, one of his seniors sent 2 top students to “verify his qualifications” to teach. When they attacked, one received a cross kick, and the other had to carry him away. Nothing further was said, and my teacher continued teaching.
On one occasion, many years later, a teacher brought his student to challenge my teacher. They were told that if they wanted to say they are better, then go ahead, and please leave us alone. My teacher didn’t fight the student, but word got out in the kf community, and there was no problem for my teacher.
[QUOTE=-N-;1297530]
More likely, WJM was doing just enough to evade BL. And BL gassed himself out of frustration and rage.
Even Hawkings Cheung had to turn to karate to pick up mid/long range footwork.
How about this scenario…
BL showed up in Chinatown with some skills and ****ed everybody off with all his trash talking.
Someone like Lau Bun isn’t going to personally kick his @ss. A person at that level has nothing to gain from fighting some mouthy kid that knew some WC. If he anihilates Lee, he would be criticized for picking on a lesser person. If he held back, people would say he lost.
WJM was a noob. He was convenient to put up to respond to BL. BL couldn’t shut down WJM’s school, but Chinatown kf community could. If BL beat WJM, then tough luck. If WJM beat BL, then Lee wouldn’t be able to trash talk any more.
WJM probably had nothing personal against BL. He probably had to pay his dues to be allowed to keep his school open. That could be why he doesn’t talk about the fight. To not drag the names of others into it. That could be why when he was asked several times if he won, he answered by saying that his sign was still up outside his school. That’s all he wanted, just to have his school.
That situation with the noob teacher being tested was pretty common. When my teacher first established himself in SF, one of his seniors sent 2 top students to “verify his qualifications” to teach. When they attacked, one received a cross kick, and the other had to carry him away. Nothing further was said, and my teacher continued teaching.
On one occasion, many years later, a teacher brought his student to challenge my teacher. They were told that if they wanted to say they are better, then go ahead, and please leave us alone. My teacher didn’t fight the student, but word got out in the kf community, and there was no problem for my teacher.[/QUOTE]
Re"More likely…" We are in the same page with this. We just described it differently.
Re Your scenario: I can understand the tradition of it. But Bruce tried to take somebody out. And he FAILED. He went from saying something like “you have been killed by your friend” to desperately saying, “Do you give up?”
mickey
wang is the personality to likely be humble and not admit winning and bruce is the personality likely to be narccisistic and not admit losing.
the critical question is, what has bruce lee done to/for kung fu, his impact, legacy.
martial career:
-he insults every kung fu style other than wing chun.
-quits wing chun, insult wing chun, insults entire chinese martial arts
-never fought after making up his own style and started teaching
-insults every single style other than his own style at long beach tournament
-performs flowery northern movements learned in 2 months in movies
-promotes “gong fu” to american people in interviews
personal virtues:
-ambushes random untrained pedastrians to test wing chun
-betrays yip man
-seduces his student, marries her, later has hong kong mistresses
-insults and bullies chinese gong fu guys in chinatown who are poor coolies
cultural impact:
-led to short term interest jeet kune do and kung fu, quickly died down after americans found them to be ineffective
-led to long term legacy of kung fu attracting mentally ill and immoral people
-in 1990s only remembered by high pitched screams “WACHAAAA”, used to as insult to degrade asians
-helped build stereotype of quiet, effeminate, small, asexual kung fu master, displacing earlier samurai movie masculine figures
-in modern millenial generation is remembered by NO ONE, remaining kung fu enthusiasts are age 35+ remnants, except few big cities
conclusion: in present times the kung fu community is no bigger than it was in 1960s before bruce lee, except the quality has severely degraded caused by commercialization started by bruce lee craze. bruce lee was an interloper and outsider who hijacked overseas kung fu for his personal ambition and led to the corruption and disruption of the immigrant kung fu community.
[QUOTE=mickey;1297531]We just described it differently.
[/QUOTE]
Yes.
Mainly I thought it telling that BL’s superficial take on N. Shaolin was that it was just something flashy he could sell to the public. Didn’t fully appreciate it, and couldn’t deal with it as well as he thought he could when he went up against WJM.