I think that there is no difference in the way to applie a technique in say a wing chun style punch or a boxing punch. The heavy conditionning we see in boxing is necessary in competitions to be able to wistand and give hundreds of gloved punches during a multi-rounds match.
A punch should always be relaxed during the motion if speed and focus is desired. Boxers (good boxers!) are always relaxed when punching and know how to use their whole body to produce power. I think ,we share some common things after all!..And also…Beware of these old out of shape ex-boxers!..They might still have heavy power in their punches,even with the big muscles long gone! 
I think there are 2 separate arguments/points being discussed here.
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The principles of body mechanics are refined and analogous, (but not the same), to the principles of power generation found in other MA’s. Only the unskilled and the sloppy rely on the strength of youth.
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Boxers themselves, however, are not “refined” because they never realize the full potential of their motions. They have a 1-track mind - move and punch. Of course, the best boxers have the best movements, slips, bobs, weaves, punches, etc., but they don’t realize that their biomechanic principles can give them so much more more if they would learn to kick, throw, etc..
On the limited scale of pure punching, boxing is superior in terms of simplicity and efficiency compared to the hand sets of most MA’s, IMHO.
On a larger scale, boxing may limit one’s understanding of one’s possible full range of expression in pure combat.
fmann- You are correct in that by your statement you argue that boxing is not a complete system… that’s not really at issue.
I don’t think anybody disagrees with that statement, so it’s kind of moot.
To say that boxers are unrefined is a bit far fetched. Boxers may be unrefined “combatants,” in the sense that they do not train to deal with kicks and throws. However, they are VERY refined punchers, as you pointed out. To say they don’t reach their full potential, biomechanically isn’t necessarily true, IMO. They reach full potential punching, which is what boxing is all about. They certainly don’t pay attention to the other stuff, unless they cross train, because they aren’t doing it for self-defense (at least, I hope not!). I’m trying to avoid the apples/oranges comparison–kicking mechanics are different than throwing mechanics, so to say their mechanics aren’t refined depends entirely on what you’re talking about. VERY refined punches… not so refined throws…
To say that studying boxing gives you a narrow view… well, that’s true of any art. A boxer might say–I’ll just knock him out before (x), a TKD guy would say, oh, he’ll never get past my kicks, a BJJer might say, hey, I’m not worried, I’ll just take him down. That’s why, if you are interested in the “self-defense” aspect of boxing, you have to go play with other people to evolve strategies to deal with attacks other than punches.
But as far as the original topic–Boxing mechanics/technique is FANTASTIC–for punching 
This be the third time i’ve posted it but it’s quite relevant; Tim Cartmell’s thoughts on boxing lifted from his discussion forum:
"Western boxing is probably the best choice of all the martial arts when it comes to developing practical hand skills in a relatively short amount of time.
Western boxing doesn’t need to be ‘driven’ by anything else, it works just fine as it is. When the Chinese army was researching and developing their hand to hand combat (which later evolved into the modern San Shou/San Da tournament fighting popular today), they researched all the popular forms of martial arts (including their own). The conclusion was that Western boxing hand techniques (when it came to developing practical striking and defensive abilities in a reasonable amount of time) were superior to all others (including their own). Other (Chinese) hand techniques were included to round out the training, but the foundation of San Shou hand techniques is Western boxing. The striking techniques of the IMA (especially Xing Yi Quan) are, in my opinion, on par with Western boxing, but for shear speed of skill development (and practical ability), you can’t beat boxing (an interesting side note, the descriptions of generating force described in Jack Dempsy’s book, “Championship Fighting,” are virtually identical to those in Xing Yi Quan).
A few months of boxing lessons with a good coach will almost certainly be of great value to your training."
And an article on the connection between boxing and CMA:
Naf,
Preaching to the choir bud!!!
Another thing slightly OT but why are backfists illegal in boxing?
and why are spinning backfists expressly banned in some kickboxing matches? ch5 kickboxing viewers in the uk will probably know what i’m talking about
EF - I was being a little prolix when I said kicking was for suckers. Of course being a bagua man, or at least trying to be one on a good day, my feet have a habit of seeking out nearby legs all on their own accord. That said, I think moving constantly is still the #1 priority, and I personally like the feel of leg jamming and trapping better than kicking. I’m not sure why you’d say kicks are for killing though… you must have meant elbows.
braden plays down his abilities too much
I liek elbows but not in the traditonal sense. Try to elbow my face. Yo can’t if I elbow your ribs: the ribs are closer, ****her out then the head which rest in the center of the torso.
Try it with a friend. Have him elbow your head and extend your elbow to his rib cage. Who get’s who. Howver, power generated though extending the lbow from shoulder power and hittign with elbow, bridge and palm, now I like that.
As for boxing, I agree 100% its the quickest way to kicking a$$.
As for it not being basic. I can’t agree to that, being the art has a total number of blows to choose from that I could count on one had.
Doesn;t mean its bad, in fact that’s the reason I like it.
I think we all agree in our own way, but are just being argumentative.
As for why kicks do kill.
Think of the power generated from a kick. You study Ba GUa right?
Think of when you have already broken a person’s “horse”, structure, whaver you want to call it, if you’r not incorporating your legs at that point, either deystroying the frame, tripping, or breaking them over a trip – well, that’s not complete.
In fact, every step is kick that did not land. Every kick is a step.
E-Fist,
A vertical elbow to the face or upper chest beats a horizontal elbow to the ribs. Go try it.
What Water Dragon said,
A arching elbow to the head or upper chest is the prime elbow, on most occasions it will catch something, the same can not be stated for a shot to the ribs, where if the attacker “hollows” you are left with air or at the most a glancing blow.
Not to mention, why would anybody aim for the ribs? There is nothing really going on down in that sector worth the elbows time, if I find myself in the area I may take a shot at the floater, but the head is a much more applicable target in terms high percentage and trauma.
Just my two yen.
Boxing is great. And Water Dragon is correct.
A vertical elbow is affective. Not arguing that. My point lies a little deeper. Why not: palm/bridge/elbow. Elbow and palm hitting two targets at once. Elbow and bridge stopping incomping hook or strike (which is an attack, not a block) and palm of fist hitting the face or torso. The entire thing continuing through.
This is just a discussion. We can share our experinces. Me, I fight with a WC guy who throws elbows a lot. When he pulls them off they are devestating and rock me to me core. The end the fight. Not that they drop me, but rattle me so much it breaks my flow and he can apply follow up moves which he thankfully doesn’t.
But the other times, and these do out weight those, and becomijg more more frequent as I have studied this closely, the elbow gets flipped, and from there, forget the break, but kicks to the now hangng upper torso and head come into play, strikes to the back. When that elbow gets flipped the other can get behind you, and from there its over.
Just something to think about. Elbows are good. Basic elbow, throw the short weapon out, I think, not bad, elementary. And elemnatry my dear Watson won’t cut it against someone who fights expecting elbows: ie, as soon as your technique receives a barrier you go to flip the elbow. Raised elbows are bad in general, they break your strong structure (no leverage) and open up your floating rip.
Just my two cents
Evolution Fist, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Elementary tools are the best tools around.
Trying to flip an elbow sounds good in theory but in a heated reality it does not work that way, elbows are very fast and they deliver a lot of blunt trauma and forward pressure to whatever they connect, not to mention the fact that no one is going to leave the extended elbow out there for a person to manipulate, they will be working on nailing you with other elbows and strikes.
I would like to see somebody try to flip one of my elbows, elbows are a close quater weapon, used in a clinch they are even more viscous, try being pushed, pulled, slammed, kneed, all the while elbow strikes are raining down on you, either you start hitting back or you get put down.
By the way, how do you allow “devasting” elbow strikes in your sparring???
Muay Thai and Lethawae fighters don’t even do this?
I think that I spar pretty hard and yet we do not allow head contact elbows due to their very serious ability to deliver damage, the only time we do that is when we are using serious protective gear, i.e. motorcycle helmet, and even then to use your words, you get rocked.
A elbow does not require a lot of force to do a lot of damage, I once witness a training partners nose get smashed/broken by just a graze in a elbow/cqc/clinching drills.
I have trained with Khun Kao on elbows, and I have no idea what kind of elbow strikes other people train with, but the elbows I learned from him (however poorly), involve a tight rigid structure like a boxer’s hook. I really don’t know how you would simply move the elbow around if you were on the receiving end.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
I have trained with Khun Kao on elbows, and I have no idea what kind of elbow strikes other people train with, but the elbows I learned from him (however poorly), involve a tight rigid structure like a boxer’s hook. I really don’t know how you would simply move the elbow around if you were on the receiving end.
Rephrase the ???. I think I have an answer, but I want to make sure I understand what you’re asking about first.
WD,
It’s not really a question, it’s more of a statement. The elbows that I have trained in seem to be more like a battering ram than something that can be moved around easily. I don’t see how they could be manipulated. Avoided or blocked perhaps, but not parried/redirected.
OK, Sure.
To make this a nice theoretical example, lets assume you and I are faced off and your fire a vertical elbow at my chest, you’re aiming at the middle of my sternum. By vertical, I’m referring to an elbow that works mechanically like an uppercut.
Point 1. If you can fire this off, I can work from the clinch. Since you wrestle, I’m sure you know that when we are in physical contact, if you are going to attack, I’m going to feel that.
Point 2. I’m not going to avoid or move your elbow around. I’m going to trap it (so I can throw you) and try toavoid as much of the power as possible.
So, as you fire off, the first thing I’m going to do is try and get out of the way. I might take a step back, I might try to hollow out the chest so I don’t take the full force, probably I’ll do a combination.
While I’m doing that, I’m going to try and get my hand in the crook of your elbow and squeeze it to my chest. If I can get that, then I CAN move your elbow around. I can move it around by moving my whole torso around. What I want to do is move it so that I break you’re structure so I can throw you.
As far as parry, redirect, I agree. That’s not what I want to do. But, I can parry or redirct by evading, not being there when you throw it. Of course, my ability to sense you move has to be higher than your ability to fire that thing off. Again, it comes down to who’s better and who can make the other guy play their game.
Ok, that I can envision.
Me, I’d avoid, or block, then close the gap. Screw hooking the elbow I’d use tight chest to chest pressure to avoid the space to create the shot.
Different terminology–I don’t consider evasion/hollowing to be redirection… just avoidance. But that’s all semantics
Naf - Man you can never please everyone, can you.
EvFist - I think it’s easy to get carried away with ‘every step is a kick’ and dedicating yourself to ‘complete attacks.’ It’s easy to get ‘goal-oriented’ when you think like that.
If I’m picturing what you’re calling palm-bridge-elbow right, it’s what alot of bagua people call piercing. It’s certainly a good technique; actually it’s the staple, most basic offense/defense in every bagua system I’ve seen, that I can recall off-hand. But it’s far from infallible! When I say elbows, I’m not talking about standing at range and launching elbows for you to pierce through, that would be silly!
Simple = good. Piercing = simple. If only simple = easy, we’d all be set.