Boxing and Kung Fu.

Boxing’s power–NOT fundamentally attribute based.

Ok, what I mean by the thread title is this: You read a LOT of stuff about how western boxing and competitive arts in general, rely on physical attributes for performance.

This is, at best, wildly inaccurate, and at worst, utter crap.

I believe the reason that this perception exists is because boxing,
wrestling, etc, are practiced as competitive sports. At high levels of competition, the skill level is high. At this point, physical attributes “make or break.” Your technique will only get you so far without honing your physical attributes to complement your personal style. So, physical attributes tend to be emphasized as much as skill. Because this physical conditioning is so vital to competitive success, some people make the incorrect leap that “it’s more about physical attributes,” forgetting the
long, long hours engaged in repetitive drilling at different speeds to hone technique, timing, flow, etc.

Now, the above is more of an aside, and probably worthy of its own separate thread. But it leads into the next point:

The power in boxing is no more fundamentally attribute based than the power generated in any strike from any art.

I will use as my example, a straight right thrown by an orthodox fighter.

The straight right begins at the rear foot. The foot pivots on the ball of the foot, pushing on the ground, generating torque in the rear leg. This opens up the hip so it is more or less square to your opponent, then the shoulders come around. The spine should be naturally straight, neither bent over at the waist, hunched badly, nor unnaturally stiff. While this is happenning, the right arm is being extended and turned over. At the end of
the movement, the structure created is more or less stiff. That is, a direct push on the fist will be transferred all the way through your body to the rear foot on the ground. I realize that some argue about the palm down or vertical fist. Different argument for a different thread.

I can personally tell when I have executed it really well when, at the moment of contact, I feel a big “push” in the ball of my rear foot.

Now, does the power come from all the massive amounts of strength I’m using? The answer is no. The use of strength (using too much “shoulder”) can compensate somewhat for improper structure, but you will rapidly tire (not to mention be slow). Instead, the power of the straight right comes from
two things–speed of execution, and proper structure at the moment of impact.

Proper structure, as outlined above, comes from proper body alignment, which in turn, creates “stiffness” from the floor to the fist. This structure is stable and does not give. If the structure is not stiff, then it gives at the moment of impact, and power is not transfered to the target as efficiently as it might be, depending on the amount of give.

Speed comes from looseness in the body. If you are tight, you move slowly. It’s that simple. So, in order to optimize your speed, you have to remain relaxed and loose…until the moment of impact, when everything is nice and stiff.

So, the power in the punch comes from how quickly you can align your body to attain that rigid structure. And that speed comes only from being relaxed until the moment of impact. It’s not a matter of muscle strength or just banging away. It’s proper body mechanics.

The above was not meant to say that all punching mechanics are fundamentally the same at their core (I happen to think they are, but that’s a different topic). It does however, demonstrate that the power generation is NOT due primarily to attributes, and rather on executing the proper technique in a bio-mechanically efficient way.

MP, the problem might be context as well.
For instance, to compete effectively in a sport you have to be in peak condition.
To defend yourself on the street, you dont necessarily have to be.
The other thing I got from reading your post, and this may be coming from my WC background, is that to be a good boxer, you have to have the power and strength of youth, eventually, with age, your ability decreases.
Some arts use structure to support thier power, boxing does, but not to the same extent that others do.

Great Post

Unfortunately, Boxing is a team effort also. If you look at a lot of the matches today, you will realize how many of the athelets are not paying attention to their footwork. Lots of them tred on the heels and shove their punches. That’s not entirely their fault but also the coaches and training partners as well. Also the sport mentality demands physical attributes. Who would paid money to see a bout that’s going to end within the first 30 sec. You have to make sure the match is a spectacular show! Anyway, you have made some good post. Thanks

Mantis108

i’m sure that if i were ever in a match with george foreman, i could take comfort (as i was being mercilessly beaten around the head and ribs) in the fact that his abilities had faded with age.

:slight_smile:

seriously, PERHAPS competitive boxing is a young person’s game. but then, so are competitive athletics of many sorts. but now we’re drawing a distinction between professional athletes on one side and noncompetitors on the other.

if the practice of gung fu by hobbyists (sorry, lack of a better term) doesn’t inherently rely on physical attributes, i’d argue that the boxing hobbyist is bound by the same standards. no, i’ll never be a competitive boxer. but my technique is sound enough to make it viable in sparring, self defense, etc.

stuart b.

I believe MP is right in that not all the power comes from strength, but I do believe that for some, strength is the hinge that holds the whole thing together, especially in certain circumstances.

R5A,

You’ve missed the point.

From a mechanics perspective, boxing isn’t about physical attributes. At no point does “muscling”
the punch come under desired execution.

It does not take the speed and strength of youth to be a good boxer.
It takes the speed and strength of youth to be a COMPETITIVE boxer. It’s not the same thing,
and that was my point in the beginning of the post. So there’s really no argument.

It doesn’t mean your BOXING can’t continue to improve, but your competitive days are numbered in a sport which
has, at its core, the goal of beating the crap out of each other.

If you had a competitive Wing Chun circuit, complete with the kind of high-level skill present in olympic
and pro boxing, you’d have a similar situation.

My instructor is 50 and if he hit me, I’d more than feel it. He throws beautifully. He’d be dangerous on the street to an attacker.
Could he last 5 or 6 rounds of full contact sparring with a 25 year old his weight? Well, that’s a question of stamina, which isn’t about
“boxing the art,” THAT’S about “boxing the sport.”

All I’m saying is that to say boxing somehow is about, at its core, attributes, is to make a fundamental error.

Great post. But I would say the power generated by a Ba Gua player is not only different, but applied differently then a boxer.

For one, we have no desire to stand toe to toe and exchange blows. I do admire the boxer. Nice and simple: hook, upper cut, cross. Jab is just set up. I like that.

But put a De La Hoya against Tyson. No way. They do not have the same ability, natural attributes. La Hoya could strike Tyson’s body all day, one goot uppercut from tyson, no way. Give them weapons, say a sword, know it comes down to skill. I believe La Hoya may be a better fighter poind for pound, but that Tyson is just a beast of a man: powerful.

Skill plays a part, but weight matters. That’s why there are weight classes. And that’s why it is also a very beaitiful, but rare thing, when you find a smaller man who can beat and match up against a larger, younger, more “able” aponant. That means he has technique.

It is in boxing as well, no doubt. Ali was a style master. Did things considered unorthadox, but they worked. I just believe in boxing and (some external styles) condition and natural power come more into play. When you use force against force, the larger force will win.

Hey MP, its a good point, and I wouldnt even begin to debate you, I just wanted to understand the context. In MA we often make judgements with context in mind, others may not percieve that same context.
I think any good martial art relies more on structure as a base then strength.

evolutionfist,

it’s a good point. but against a ‘larger, younger, more able’ opponent, by definition, any one of us would lose. ‘more able’ refers to technique. and if they’ve got that IN ADDITION TO attributes, we’re kinda screwed.

now the question is can a more able boxer beat a younger, stronger boxer. and i submit that it’s entirely possible.

tyson is not only a monster. he’s technically very skilled. can’t overlook that. know what i mean?

stuart b.

Apoweyn, I would go even ****her and say anything is possible. A much older opponent with proper technique could beat a younger, stronger more agile opponent. But like all other factors, if skill is equal and luck is not a factor, younger is much more likely to win due to strength and speed, etc…

Look, I don’t understand your points here.

R5A, E-fist, explain what your points are. Are you saying that physical attributes are more important to the ART of boxing than in other arts? I’ve already agreed it’s important from a SPORT perspective. The two have to be seperated for this particular discussion.

I’m saying that the use of boxing technique does not require great physical attributes to: a. be effective, or b. be mastered.

To COMPETE as a boxer requires a good deal of attribute training, but that’s a different issue.

So I’m a bit confused here.

I guess my point is context. you are right, anyone can master boxing through technique but will you be a good boxer? That depends on what you define as good really. Good technique does not mean you are necessarily good at boxing if you cant win a match, to some anyway.
Like Wing Chun, anyone can master Wing Chun, and a little person may be able to defend themselves with it, especially with good techniques, they may be able to teach it really well too. But then some huge monster of a man comes along, learns a little and can crush them.

So the question is this then R5A,

Are you saying that in both Boxing and Wing Chun, physical attributes contribute to the success of the individual?

If you are, I agree. Obviously, physical attributes come into play in combat, be it sportive or real. I would never say “strength doesn’t matter.” I would say “proper technique maximizes your potential.”

Is that what you are really getting at?

You hit it right on the nose! thanks for coming through where my inability to express myself did not!

So then, Boxing with proper technique maximizes your potential output. Any problems with that statement?

I agree, no problems! I thin I follow you now.

So, basically, that’s where I was going with this R5A:

Many people degrade boxing as somehow relying on physical attributes for effectiveness. However, I think we’re both in agreement that:

  1. Physical attributes play a big role in a fight.
  2. Maximizing use of those attributes is the name of the game and that is done with proper technique.

Based on that, is it safe to say we are in agreement that a boxing punch does not “rely” on physical strength, just like, a Wing Chun punch does not “rely” on physical strength?

I realize the application/execution of the strike might be different, but that’s not really what I’m talking about right now.

Ability: how high are you able to jump, how fast can you run, how much weight are you able to lift. This is detremined by ones God given features. What you start off with.

Now, ones ability can be increased with technique, that is skill.

But a 110 lbs pound guy will not be ABLE enough to compete with a 280lbs guy in a pushing match – unless he has some technology.

The way of competitive boxing, the rules are sort of set up to keep it fair, which outlowas certain tricks or skills one has developed to overcome that difference in God given ability.

As a side note, boxers, because they tape up, have bad wrists.

I would say the same thing about Hung Gar to a point, at least lower to mid level Hung gar; Earth and Water elements, thrown out by a 120 lbs guy, won’t be too affective. A 200 lbs guy puts his weight into bringing that around and look out.

Size does matter no doubt. Now, does that mean that I or you can’t beat a bigger guy? No, of coarse. I have and do and I’m sure you have and do and will. But that is techique. Different from ability. The bigger men I have fought had the ABILITY to pick me up and power drive me. I did not have the ABILITY to lift them or topple them. But, by skill or techique, being ABLE to not allow their ABILITY to be a factor, score that chin shot, that;s the difference.

Boxing by nature has a lot of trading. A 110 lbs trading blows with a 210 lbs, noway. Not goiung to happen. Of coarse the sun shines on a dog’s a$$ every now and then. But for the most part, the smaller man will have to have a lot more skill.

E-fist.

ok. So your point is that a 110 lb guy is going to need more skill than a 220 lb guy if the 110 lb guy is to win.

Is that different in any other art? I mean, I think that’s pretty universal.

I don’t understand how that applies to boxing technique not being (or being, if that’s your particular viewpoint) reliant on strength for effectiveness.

I mean, let’s face it… a 110 lb man is going to have a hard time of it with a 220 lb guy no matter what he studies, unless he is VASTLY more skilled than his opponent.

MP, are you a boxer?
I for one think Boxing is simple as far as martial arts go, but elegant that way. Its even simpler then WC, and WC is simple!
Now dont get me wrong, its simple like chess, easy to learn, hard to master.
I dont think Strength has anything to do with the technical side of boxing. If you had great skill in boxing that may allow you to hold off a larger stronger opponent. This is true in any art. I think if someone is degrading boxing it is probably because they do not truly understand it.
It is easy to stand on the sidelines and say that sucks or that could be done differently but to do it gives you insight into the hidden complexities of anything.