Originally posted by fiercest tiger
What does an internal punch feel like?
FT
Well I’ve been hit by a Xing Yi guy as well as a (very softly) by my Taiji teacher. Oddly, it feels cold and penetrating. Like it is a steel needle going through part of your body rather than a battering ram that knocks your whole body back.
The force seems to be more concentrated in a single place rather than dispersed over a larger area.
Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
[B]I think what you guys fail to realize is that saying a punch is internal doesn’t necessarily = more powerful.
It simply means that is executed using a different way of moving. [/b]
This I understand… to an extent. I know mechanics are different, such as taiji’s coiling, but from my limited knowledge of coiling, I’d say external guys utilize it also, albeit not quite to the same extent.
[b]The reason is that if you punch externally is sets your momentum up to be used against you.
If you punch internally then everything remains balanced and your momentum is negligible. [/B]
this I do not understand. Can you clarify?
Its always difficult to talk about physical actions, because, you can never be totally sure you are talking about the same thing, however, hand to hand, face to face, you can easily convey the information.
The issue of remaining balanced and not succumbing to momentum is an interesting one.
I find a lot of westerners throw their shoulder into a punch. Throw the shoulder, drive through with the arm. The fist travels from point a to point b, however often (not always) the hips travel from point a to point a-and-a-half.
Think along the lines of fist moving from point a to b, and hips moving from point a to b. The penetration of the punch is the same, a to b, but the complete body is behind it. And if that complete body is a bit larger, so is the additional energy. Weight as a component of final issued energy.
I don’t think “coiling” works for me as a term. I understand coiling, but its just the beginning, and its a telegraph. To me, its like a cartoon cell. One frame is perfectly balanced potential energy. The next is perfectly balanced issued force. Every state contains both the balanced expended force, and the balanced potential force. It has to be a full body thing, not just a few elements. Footwork is critical, and often unnoticed or subtle. The more you can coordinate your full body, the less any single element has to carry the responsibility for delivering the power. Speed increases, relaxation under stress becomes easier.
But, internal, external? I still don’t know what that means..
I think its just an arbitrary label for something that takes lots of practice and control.
Holding the power inside your muscles, or gathering it up and injecting it into your target. Speed, focus, intent.
Internal vs. external
I have studied both ‘internal’ and ‘external’ traditional arts. I agree, many of you understand the difference between these styles but I see some confusions in some of the messages. Let me explain it from my experiences, from my point of view.
With external arts you mainly rely on the use and strenght of your muscles and bones. To develop this kind of power one does a great deal of ‘power trainings’ such as push ups, sit ups, running, use of weight training and other physical and aerobic excercises that strenghten the bones and muscles. The damaging effects from this kind of power is clearly visible on the body: open wounds, bleeding, bruses, broken body parts. External martial artists are usually muscular, and visibly strong.
Internal arts develop internal power which is the use of the body as an entire - not to be confused with the Chi. The energy starts at the rooted feet and each body part adds its own strenght to it as it transfers it to the next. As the energy is getting closer to the delivering part, it gets stronger and stronger, each body part adds its own streght to the energy. It is kind of like a chain reaction in the body. The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.
It is not the developement but the use Chi that divides these two styles from one another. External arts develop and use the Chi equally but to strenghten the muscles and bones while the internal arts use it to increase the powers that are added with each part. There is no clear line between internal and external arts for they both use - and must use - a bit of the other. They both must use the other somewhat in order to function, just like neither ying nor yang will ever exist by themselves at any given time. Learn both styles and use the one that is useful at the given situation.
How can I best compare these two powers? So far the best explanation I read about this was the use of a bat compared with a whip. The bat will damage the body on the surface more visibly while the whip, painful as the bat is but only leaves a small mark on the body.
X-Warrior
Re: Internal vs. external
Originally posted by X-Warrior
[B] The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.
X-Warrior [/B]
Okay not to pick on you, but this sounds like something you were told…Have you experienced either causing or recieving this inernal damage yourself? I’v known some really good internal practitioners that could kick my butt. For every one I’ve met that’s got that ability, there’s 10 who look weak, are weak, and have no ability to land a strike on someone under pressure with any amount of force.
As the energy is getting closer to the delivering part, it gets stronger and stronger, each body part adds its own streght to the energy. It is kind of like a chain reaction in the body. The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.
So far the best explanation I read about this was the use of a bat compared with a whip. The bat will damage the body on the surface more visibly while the whip, painful as the bat is but only leaves a small mark on the body.
Whipping power or “chain” power can be found in external as well as internal martial arts. IMO that is not the difference.
The difference is that in IMA’s there is an expansive and contractive quality that you don’t find in EMA’s.
What I mean is expansive and contractive in all directions.
[b/] Ai Lek wrote:The reason is that if you punch externally is sets your momentum up to be used against you.
If you punch internally then everything remains balanced and your momentum is negligible. [b]
Sevenstar wrote:
this I do not understand. Can you clarify?
Yes, think about a hypothetical perfectly spherical balloon. Whether it is blown up or it is deflated the center of mass remains in the same place. Right?
It balances itself out.
If you push down on the balloon from the top, where is the center of mass now? Same place.
If you push on the balloon from the sides the center of mass stays in the same place.
Now let’s take a balloon that is slightly uneven. Let’s say it is stiff on one side, making it a little top heavy. Now when you push on the balloon it picks up momentum, it will roll foward and backward due to its own inertia.
That is similar to the differences between internal and external.
One of the favorite tricks of my IMA teacher is to come in to your space very small then he “blows himself up” ie he crowds out all of your space.
But he is still perfectly on balance. If you were not there he would look like he was doing a form.
He is not relying on his momentum to knock you down, rather, he is expanding in all directions to crowd you out.
If he does it suddenly and violently then you will feel it as a strike. If he does it slowly then he will push you off balance.
Siu, no this has not been told me, I have experienced everything I have written down here. I studied both type of arts for several years, even have sparring experiences in both (on amature level) and have met many other masters of these styles from other schools. Everything I have written down is my pure personal experience. Yes I have also met masters who could do and beyond what they were saying and those whose mouth were larger than their knowledge. I have had a ‘master’ of an internal style hit me, he wanted to demonstrate his ‘fierce’ internal power and I have truely felt nothing but a mild tossing. He even tried twice with no success.
-X-
Originally posted by X-Warrior
[B]Siu, no this has not been told me, I have experienced everything I have written down here. I studied both type of arts for several years, even have sparring experiences in both (on amature level) and have met many other masters of these styles from other schools. Everything I have written down is my pure personal experience. Yes I have also met masters who could do and beyond what they were saying and those whose mouth were larger than their knowledge. I have had a ‘master’ of an internal style hit me, he wanted to demonstrate his ‘fierce’ internal power and I have truely felt nothing but a mild tossing. He even tried twice with no success.
-X- [/B]
fair enough…
You got that right MantisKilla, show it or best to stay quiet.