I think that alot of boxers that are relaxed are more internal then most martial artist when it comes to fighting what do u guys think?
FT
Question is how do you define “internal fighting” ?
I study internal arts and…
I think your dead right, its something i also seem to tell people quite frequently.
Good western boxers are often very relaxed, have excerlent power and are very addaptable fighters.
Prince Nazeem would be a boxer who even my instructor points out as using a very internal method of fighting and generating power.
Some of the MMA fighters also use a type of power which has a lot in commen with the internals. Guys like Sefo, Crocrop and Fedor are all using much more than just there limbs when they hit are are using there full bodys to generate power. You also have lightweights like Pulver and Sudo who use very relaxed and subtle mechanics.
BJJ seems to use the a similar methodology on the floor as Taiji uses standing, basicaly stay relaxed, go with flow and always try to keep superior postion.
Seems to me though that a lot of people dance around a very basic fact of internal training. If you hope to stay relaxed under stress then you had better factor that into your training.
All the relaxed push hands and flower power mentalitys will likely not help you relax when someone is intent of doing you serious physical injury. You will also not be relaxed if you are thrown strait into sparring ( i know this first hand becouse many of my students who started sparring early are still tense under duress) without proper physical preperation and mental conditioning.
Staying relaxed in fighting is I feel much harder than most people like to pretend. It takes a lot to be able to shut off your ego and simply focuss on the task at hand, its something you always try and strive to improve at. I dont think this is something anyone just has or gets i think its something you constantly build upon.
No. Totally disagree.
ALI
watch how muhammed ali is rooted when he throws a lot of his punches. my gongfu brother pointed out that one.
Totally agree with you mate
OFZ
Originally posted by Tigrentera
No. Totally disagree.
because…?
considering we were just talking about this on the other forum, I’d really like to hear your opinion.
I’m still not sure what the difference between internal and external fighting is - nearly 30 years on now…
Relaxed? Partially, I think there’s more to it than that though.
Rooted? Using the full body? Again, I think that’s not the whole story, but a pre requisite…
Focus and precision? Deliberate executions, ability to read and feel an opponents intention? Partially?
How about, NOT surviving on pure agression, or striking with arm and fist only. We can all probably agree that NOT internal…
So, sure, some boxers, could be more internal, watching Ali v Bonoveno (sp?) or Liston you could easily see that’s true. Probably any good fighter, regardless of style, exhibits some of these so called “internal” characteristics…
But, from what I’ve gathered from a number of the more well trained kickboxers and tournement guys, there’s one thing missing…
Where do the fireballs of Chi come into it? After all, how can a boxer be internal without fireballs of Chi? I lit a f@rt once, do you think it might be something like that? Its source was certainly internal…
FT
You working at Centennial Park these days?
On the flip side of this question,
Is there anything that is unquestionably NOT internal?
Originally posted by Yum Cha
[B]On the flip side of this question,
Is there anything that is unquestionably NOT internal? [/B]
Yum Cha, you brought up an interesting point…what really is the difference between internal and external fighting? Well done internal fighting and external fighting both use whole body movement. Both use positioning and attack structure. Both (amazingly) utilize bascially the same techniques…I think the destinction between the two is way overblown and used primarily by those who really don’t understand either IMO.
no-one seems to be bothered to answer your quest,yum,so i will.“not internal”.wu shu,chti sao(wc)boxing,wrestling,karate,teakwondo,sparring etc.are NOT internal fighting.
now that you’ve answered, explain it. Why is boxing not internal? why is karate not internal? what about grappling/wrestling? what is it about them IYO that makes them not internal?
and if i don’t,are you going to ban me? also its not internal fighting,must have right concept first(master-----ater).
its obviouse that you are a low level practitioner,that you demand i explain.
the explanation is quite simple to who it is so rude to demand at this early time.
Sui
you are the low leveled know nothing practitioner who hides behind vague David Carradine-esque garbled statements, you never answer anyone directly on any topic.
Now, how did what I typed make you feel? you wanna respond and tell me off now I assume. I also assume that’s how Sevenstar felt on your comment to him. Think about it.
By the way, I retract my above statements about you (sui). It was only used as an excercise (sp?) to illustrate your condescending tone.
well yes i can empathize,but how i feel is that no matter what anyones says i know what of my center and experience in learning to feel confident to admit from time to time that i’m wrong or what ever.
i believe in the upmost critisism,that of my teachers,and the people a have contact with.so on that note if thats what you see that i am low level then thats how you see it.(if 7star can’t take the heat then i’m sure he does not look towards others to rebalcence his mistakes.there is only the learning,not the undestanding).David carradine is not a failure its just that many people are discusted with the association he has with the K.F realm,as you do too.
excersised well but it leaves me wanting more,your emotions to define whats right and wrong leaves you off balance B9.
Originally posted by Sui
well yes i can empathize,but how i feel is that no matter what anyones says i know what of my center and experience in learning to feel confident to admit from time to time that i’m wrong or what ever.
i believe in the upmost critisism,that of my teachers,and the people a have contact with.so on that note if thats what you see that i am low level then thats how you see it.(if 7star can’t take the heat then i’m sure he does not look towards others to rebalcence his mistakes.there is only the learning,not the undestanding).David carradine is not a failure its just that many people are discusted with the association he has with the K.F realm,as you do too.
excersised well but it leaves me wanting more,your emotions to define whats right and wrong leaves you off balance B9.
what you said doesn’t bother me at all. heatis something I have no problem with. Now… why do you think a boxer can’t be internal - that is, if you can answer it.
did i say a boxer cannot be internal?another mistake 7* still can’t find the concept.
having the idea is both beyond you and me,however its not in the brain for us to figure out .either you know or you don’t know,for me to explain(simply) will not satisfy your needs or demands.
so you’re delineating between the art and the artist? as you said, boxing is not internal, but a boxer can be internal?
still contented with what we percieve to know.the strive for perfection leads the way,contentment leaves us stagnated.
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]because…?
considering we were just talking about this on the other forum, I’d really like to hear your opinion. [/B]
Well where do I start…
Let me start by saying that I am a student of both internal and external methods of fighting. Notice I say “student” and not teacher. I may be a teacher someday but even when I am a teacher I will still be a student.
Futhermore, I am not selling anything or trying to recruit students. I’m not the type of person who believes everything he is told. I am, in general, a very skeptical person and I make my living a being a skeptic and a critical thinker.
With that out of the way. Let me make the following statement:
Until you have crossed hands with a high level internal practitioner you cannot know the difference between external and internal ways of fighting.
You cannot divine the difference simply by observation. You can’t say Muhammed Ali “looks” internal because “internal” means inside where you cannot see it. By their very nature internal arts are “esoteric” meaning only the “initiated” can understand them and apply them.
The point of stating this is not to exclude people or make other people feel like there fighting art is not sufficient. Its just that the high level internal takes the body mechanics to an entirely different level. In addition to the physical aspects it takes a lot of mental discipline to achieve high level internal. You must dissolve “tensions” both within and without to truly be relaxed.
So how are internal arts physically different?
To use an analogy, high level internal makes your body like a huge water balloon (we are something like 90% water after all.) But its not quite that simple. In addition, it is like a water balloon that can alter the tension of its own skin. So in one instant your body can be like a plastic bag filled with water (low pressure) and in the next second it is a raquetball filled with water (high pressure).
When your body is like a plastic bag you absorb any incoming force. Your opponent cannot find your center because as soon as thinks he’s found it, it changes.
When your body is like an inflated raquetball it is hard and if someone pushed on you they would spin the ball to the side and deflect the force.
So in internal arts you are constantly confusing your opponent. You can feel him but he can’t feel you. You suddenly feel solid but as soon as he pushes against that solidness he realizes that it wasn’t solid at all. The harder he pushes on one side of “the ball” the harder the other side comes flying at him.
I hope my analogy is making sense.
In so called external arts your body is more like a tether ball. Your spine is the pole and your arms are like ropes, your fists the ball.
But in addition you can change the tension, elasticity and length of the ropes.
You generate power by pushing from the ground.
This twists the “pole” the pole drives the “ropes.”
You can generate more power by suddenly changing the length, elasticity and tension of the ropes.
If you start the rope long and loose and then stiffen and contract it as you twist the pole you can generate huge speed on the “balls.”
Of course, there are over 300 styles of kung fu. I am simply comparing the two that I know.
I hope this generates some good convo.
Ciao
not bad,not bad at all.see if yum can equate,little point on the coil of the pole.