I watched a world title fight today on cable. I’m not sure what the name of the guy was (it was something “boy”) but I noticed that when the other guy who was quite a bit bigger and also a southpaw threw a huge hook “boy” would take it on the pinky finger side of his forearm and as the force came through he would corkscrew his arm into a bong sao and neatly deflect the punch.
He then tended to straight punch the other guy in the face with a horizontal fist. This strategy was most effective, and what was most interesting was it appeared the guy was just doing it reflexively. It didn’t always work, but it did the vast majority of times. I have never heard of this technique being taught in boxing (though nothing surprises me) and wondered if anyone else had.
He lost the fight unfortunately due to a cut on his face. I remember somebody on this forum (I think it was the WC forum) slagging off at bong sao’s and saying that they were ineffective and useless. I am happy to say that this boxer has restored my faith in it.
Though it irks me that even though he had absolutely no form (due to the fact he had never trained WC!) his bong sao was really good. Some of us train for ages and don’t get the hang of it! Oh well, more motivation for training now that I have seen it successfully applied in the ring
Yes, it’s taught. Of course, it’s not called bong sao. I don’t really think it’s called anything. Watch for it more often, especially when a boxer uses a more horizontal looking guard against some punches and then counter punches. It’s good for getting inside, especially against a looping hook.
And as far as his form being horrible–well, it worked. Maybe things that are being used on actively resisting opponents in a dynamic environment simply don’t look as pretty as they “should.” Shocking, that.
I feel that you are a nice person and I appreciate your comments but!..These overdone lines about “Dynamic environment” and the famous " actively resisting opponent" are starting to really get on my nerves!!!What do you think Wing Chun guys practice?..Patty cake?..When I practice or teach, I punch “actively” and, I defend in a very effective “resisting manner”!..It is a very dynamic environment simply because you have to perform your Bong right or you get hit!..I will control my punches if someone is not ready yet with a specific technique but,when I feel he can do it, I punch harder.
Does that sound like doing flowery moves while tiptoing barefeet in the tulips to you?..
I understand! Bong sau works so much better in fighting than in sparring! It is not very good if you don’t stick to an opponent like it is generaly done in sparring!
wing chun concepts are built around a deep understanding of human movement. So lots of hand shapes including bong like deflections in boxing or the tan sao in the beggars hand can be found. But wing chun is STRUCTURALLY different from boxing and wrestling on how shapes of motion are energized. Lots of things look similar but are not the same. Madonna is no Marilyn.
I’ve found that bong sau (& tan sau, etc) can work well with boxing gloves on against a boxer or other styles, structurally and mechanically they are the same. But the sensitivity, sticking, wrist turning and alot of the subleties and speed are dulled if not negated, so it does not have all the full advantages it could without gloves on. Of course i have not fough a champion level boxer, but then i am not the most experienced and talented wing chun player either.
These differences do nessesate some big adjustments, at least for me. Trapping still works, but it is real hard to stick and follow, and against someone fast, it can leave me too open. The short power, efficiency, and combined defense/offence seems like it can be an used to an advantage, but I’m still playing with it trying to figure how to use it best in the ring…Thats just my personal experience, still a big work in progress to try to integrate. Yes i know the arguement that it could develop bad wing chun technical habits, but there is also much to be gained from this type of competition and cross training, imho.
I can execute a picture perfect double leg on a person when we are doing takedown drills. Put a guy in front of me who is “not playing pattycakes,” as you put it, and while the basic structure of the double leg remains, it’s just not going to look as pretty. That’s all there is to it. Oh sure, every now and then you’ll land one that’s worthy of a photo shoot, but most of the time, no.
All I’m saying is that what something “ideally,” looks like is not necessarily how it turns out, visually, or sometimes even structurally, even though the GOAL was accomplished, when you start actually trying to beat on each other.
So I’m not suggesting that WC guys don’t whack each other around. I’m suggesting that in free-sparring, the variables introduced frequently make something “look less than the ideal.” When, in fact, it worked and was applied just fine.
I get your idea!..It’s just that I always foam from the mouth and grow spikes on my back when I see things like …Resisting opponent, meditationnal benefits of Kung Fu etc!..But don’t worry about me. I listen to some Mozart and I get back to my own self in no time!..
Am I becomming grumpy or something?..
Actually the stucture is NOT the same, upon further analysis. The wrist angle is different with wrist wraps on, so the muscle quality and angle is not quite the same for bong sau. Also the gloves dull and slow the impact. The gloves also add approx 12-14 oz to the hands, so the transition from bong sau to tan sau is slightly off. The springy quality is greatly diminshed cause of these factors. These speed and spring-energy sapping factors do effect the techniques. But again, there are certain elements that still do work and are useful. Practicing wing chun and other kung fu boxing with the equiptment on does help to adjust and minmalize the handicap of gloves and other safety devices…I would definately recommend traing with the equiptment on before you step into the ring and are caught off guard by the awkwardness.
"The wrist angle is different with wrist wraps on, so the muscle quality and angle is not quite the same for bong sau. "
Mate, you are speaking for yourself and only some others. TWC (and I believe Gu Lao and HFY) do not bend the wrist of the bon arm. I can do a perfect bon or tan sao with my hands wrapped, though transitioning to fook is indeed problematic.
I agree with the prankster re precision under pressure. I’d be reluctant to criticise someone effectively using a bon lacking in technical excellence in a pro boxing match, unless I’d managed to pull off a perfect bon effectively myself in the same arena.
Read Jack Dempsey’s “Championship Fighting” sometime. There are many similarities with WC (or TWC at least) IMO.
In Gu Lao the wrist is bent, fingers forward, relaxed. Don’t know about other styles of wing chun, as thats the only method i’ve learned, traditional Gu Lao (turning style). And it does get altered slightly…I’m not saying its completely different, my statement was quite the opposite, that i believe bong sau does work with wraps and gloves on…just a bit different than the hand form i learned w/o gloves. It probably ends up being more like the version youre talking about which works just fine. At first I was saying it was the same, but then wrote the addendum to make note of some subtle differences I was thinking about afterwards.
Yeah, i still havent figured out how to best utilize fook sau with wraps/gloves on yet…
Back to the original question. Yes it is a bong sao!!! in Boxing it is called A Roll Away. And yes, I use it quite effectively in sparring. If you want to see more about this, look in Haislett’s Boxing book. I believe they have reprinted this classic, and probably available at Amazon.com.
FYI, they also have pak sao, fook sao and a modified Tan Sao. just by different names.
Remember that western Martial arts were just as advanced and scientific as eastern martial arts, they even include their own version of Dit Da Jow.
Many old texts exist here in Toronto in the University of Toronto Library called Robards Library. This is the library that they based the library in the movie “The Name of the Rose” on. ( Umberto Echo attended this University)
Hope this Helps!!!
