Biu Gee differences from one lineage to the next (Augustine Fong)

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=chusauli;1000078]Personal form? Secret? Advanced? I don’t think so. The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set. If we look at Yik Kam’s WCK, we already see the seed elements of the 3 sets in one long set. WCK’s entire curriculum is just for beginners. Application is for the “advanced”. [/QUOTE]

To reiterate Robert, I personally feel Biu Jee is a personal form to me, and the stories of the past I mentioned which have commented on it being a secret (well over 30 years ago now!) is not what I believe today. Although I do not find the stories funny. :wink:

As for the ‘one set’ idea I too have practised the same, as I too was taught that idea. What I was trying to do was keep in line with what I thought the tread was about (basically variations in Ip Mans Biu Jee) and Ip Man divided the sets for a reason IMHO. And it wasn’t JUST to make money!

[QUOTE=chusauli;1000078]All the hearsay stories of the 2nd and 3rd generation are funny, especially when they only have pieces of the complete system.[/QUOTE]

Again I feel you looking down on us mere admirers of Ip Man! Nevermind. You have your complete system.

[QUOTE=chusauli;1000078]The order doesn’t matter. Nor do signature moves.[/QUOTE]

I would HAVE to disagree. :smiley: Especially for new students.

I ask everyone to consider that if the forms ARE a blueprint, if you like, of Wing Chun, would you go to page two or three first?

Personally, I KNOW you could, but what I’m trying to get at here is that you will ultimately create a different student. And, as has been tested generations before, some will never even get to know SLT, or disregard it as inferior.

Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.

22

[QUOTE=Vankuen;1000298]I’ve always wished that more of the wing chun kicks were prevelant in the forms. Hence one of the reasons why I was intriqued with the fact that A.Fong added them into his forms both with the CK and the BT sets.

I think that while wing chun as a whole mainly capitalizes on the hands that the foot development could have been more prevelant in the boxing forms. I’ve heard some people talk about SLT having “footwork” in it, and that it indirectly teaches the proper kicking stucture, which I can see.[/QUOTE]

Adding ‘kicking’ ideas to the forms would be fine IMO, as long as nothing is taken away and you’re honest with your students.

Out of interest, what family have you heard of kicking being ‘in’ the SLT form?

23

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1000323]Adding ‘kicking’ ideas to the forms would be fine IMO, as long as nothing is taken away and you’re honest with your students.[/quote]

I wouldn’t be adding it to one of the preexisting forms, but rather just making another set for myself to be able to practice the kicks in a standalone fashion.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1000323]
Out of interest, what family have you heard of kicking being ‘in’ the SLT form?[/QUOTE]

I read it somewhere…don’t remember where. But from what I recall the idea was that the stance of YGKYM set the mechanic of the kick…i.e…the stance was how the kick was to be done if one leg was raised doing the kick.

24

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1000308]But are forms the blue print of WC? I know they are NOW, for some, but was that always the case?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1000317]Forms serve a purpose, of that there is no doubt and forms can be even used to train fighting, though not by the vast majority.
I think that, and history tells us this, forms were never a major part of MA training, but they were A PART.
It’s a given that one can learn ANY MA without forms but I have noticed that our MA becomes “better” with forms training.
Its a given that one can learn how to fight with ANY MA without forms, but forms can help one become a better fighter ( the best fighters I know all have great form).
I think that forms change as we progress through our MA life, from a thing we “had to do” to one we choose to do and enjoy, one we use to unlock the more profound things of our MA.
I don’t think that there is a set way for forms to be done after they are taught, I think that forms can be changed and done differently for different reasons.
The problem with forms is when someone things A is right and B is wrong when A and B may be two different things that happen to share some of the ame moves.
No MA should be so complicated that it can’t be learned quickly, I mean, after all, of what use is a MA that needs years to be effective?[/QUOTE]

I use the term blueprint to signify something that lays the groundwork for which the rest of the process is based upon. I.E. the forms comprise of the system’s core techniques and teach us from a proprioceptive sense. The application of course is learnt with partners through drills and the like. The ability to use the system successfully is a byproduct of all the elements of training.

Does that make more sense? So while I’m not saying that forms show you everything, I look at them like my toolbox. Yes, we learn other techniques like the tai sut for example in drills and applications, but since they are one of the tools why not stick it in the toolbox?

Of course we’re in agreeance on whether forms are necessary to fight–they are not, but are valuable in the a number of other ways when talking about gung fu.

25

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1000320]
I would HAVE to disagree. :smiley: Especially for new students.

I ask everyone to consider that if the forms ARE a blueprint, if you like, of Wing Chun, would you go to page two or three first?

Personally, I KNOW you could, but what I’m trying to get at here is that you will ultimately create a different student. And, as has been tested generations before, some will never even get to know SLT, or disregard it as inferior.

Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.[/QUOTE]

Spencer, I was referring to the one set, Biu Jee, the order of the set varies from student to student of Yip Man. I am not speaking of the 3 forms.

But to bring it up, personally, I think it might be wise to teach SNT, BJ, then CK, as opposed to the way it is currently taught.

26

Vankuen-didn’t you learn WCK and Hung-Ga from Sifu Michael Manganiello?
I seem to remember you..or perhaps it was someone who reminded me of you!
Forgive my memory…I’m gettin’ on in years!:smiley:

27

No no, wrong guy. I learned WCK originally from my stepbrother who trained in Hawaii. Later I trained in qingang quan and wu xing quan. I traded with a lot of other wing chun guys until recent. I’m currently working with another sifu to try and find a softer side to my wing chun.

28

oy-vey! I was confusing you with HuangKaiVun! :eek:
Dyslexics
of the World,
Untie!
:smiley:

29

[QUOTE=chusauli;1000078]Spencer, I was referring to the one set, Biu Jee, the order of the set varies from student to student of Yip Man. I am not speaking of the 3 forms.[/QUOTE]

I must have got confused here…

[QUOTE=chusauli;1000078]The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set.[/QUOTE]

I also find it intriguing that you would change the order of the forms, any reason/s?

[QUOTE=vankuen;1000078]I wouldn’t be adding it to one of the preexisting forms, but rather just making another set for myself to be able to practice the kicks in a standalone fashion.[/QUOTE]

Sounds similar to what some people have already done to be honest. Have a search on Wing Chun Kicking Forms, as I believe they’re quite popular! Here’s my Uncles version (personally I do not know if he ‘created’ this or inherited it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR0d0Q3iRws

[QUOTE=vankuen;1000078]But from what I recall the idea was that the stance of YGKYM set the mechanic of the kick…i.e…the stance was how the kick was to be done if one leg was raised doing the kick.[/QUOTE]

I’d say yes and no.

There is an old method called single leg SLT which I believe you’re talking about here. It’s something I looked at alot as I was definitely a legwork type of guy. But that’s just it, we always referred to legwork as legwork, kicking was something else.

30

Back on subject!

Here’s Uncle Gohs Biu Jee, which is a fair representation of Lee Shing family, although still there are differences

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZVW51VHYU&feature=related

31

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1000503]I must have got confused here…[/QUOTE]

I think so.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1000503]I also find it intriguing that you would change the order of the forms, any reason/s?[/QUOTE]

Biu Jee is very similar to SNT in small body movement and extension. So I reason to follow SNT with BJ, then CK and MYJ have bigger body movement.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1000503]Sounds similar to what some people have already done to be honest. Have a search on Wing Chun Kicking Forms, as I believe they’re quite popular! Here’s my Uncles version (personally I do not know if he ‘created’ this or inherited it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR0d0Q3iRws[/QUOTE]

Looks like an extrapolation of the Jong and Chum Kiu, then with some fancy kicking combinations. Looks like a redundant set or a demo form. Its hardly brilliant or original. Everything is already in the WCK 3 sets and Jong.

32

Bil Gee is a way to recover aka save your ar&e…its not meant to go “out the door” because your showing all the guys you want to fight how to escape or mess with your thinking…:smiley:

doing a form is one thing knowing what they are for another…if people think its all finger darting out fine :smiley: let them…deadly fingers from hell …:smiley: stay back or i unleash the fingers :smiley: take that !! poke poke poke ..oh yeah !! I counter poke you with delayed death thumb …:D:D:D:D

33

That’s how I understand it to be as well. Emergency techniques for when “real life” happens and you’re stuff doesn’t go exactly as planned.

For example, one of the “escapes” that I extrapolated from the form to regain the center was if someone pressed your elbow in at the tricep, you could biu gee from underneath the elbow to control the pressing arm–perhaps going into a lap or gam or whatever.

Of course people have shown applications of the gwai jarn / jang to be also a way to smash into someone’s guard, attack the limb, attack the body at extreme close range, or to escape a lapel grab using the jarn with the chor ma.

So there’s a lot of things that can be taken from the form. At the same time though, I’ve seen some crazy interpretations that look nothing like the form sequence that it is claimed to come from.

34

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1000320] . . . . .
Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. The Famous Leung Jan made Gu Lo Wing Chun with no SLT, CK, BJ and it’s still WC.

35

Emergency techniques form ???

All real fights are an emergency. :wink:

36

Yup, there is no need for sets, perhaps only the movements in between them are necessary and how they are used.

37

[QUOTE=chusauli;1001027]Yup, there is no need for sets, perhaps only the movements in between them are necessary and how they are used.[/QUOTE]

Do you teach the sets?

38

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1000930]Not necessarily. The Famous Leung Jan made Gu Lo Wing Chun with no SLT, CK, BJ and it’s still WC.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point! He MADE (what we know now) Gulao WCK for the rich merchants in the area at that time.

He made his point system from something, I wouldn’t think it came from thin air or another style for that matter.

39

[QUOTE=YungChun;1001030]Do you teach the sets?[/QUOTE]

I thought he said he does teach them, but with the order being SLT, BJ, CK. The point is that while you don’t need them, there’s nothing wrong with using them to ingrain the techniques and core movements, get some basic exercise, and make it a bit easier for someone to remember the various movements without having to practice them individually and accidently “forget” one.

40

[QUOTE=Vankuen;1001043]I thought he said he does teach them, but with the order being SLT, BJ, CK. The point is that while you don’t need them, there’s nothing wrong with using them to ingrain the movements, get some basic exercise, and make it a bit easier for someone to remember the various movements without having to practice them individually and accidently “forget” one.[/QUOTE]

I think the forms are underrated.. I actually hate form work but in my own experience I found that they do help lay a foundation for later skill building. Could that be done without a form, sure but it would be more tedious IMO having to say, ok now we’re going to cover point 37 of chapter 2…and all those little details in the forms..

On the other hand.. I think folks take the forms too literally..and try to look like some abstract idea the form teaches and then try and fight like that… Folks do this at different levels, but think more obviously folks would never stand in YGKYM with a Tan sticking out from SLT and fight like that right?

But folks still get caught up trying to look like a form…and not just be loose and relax and move the way you need to instead of how you think you’re suppose to… By that time all attributes will be second nature and anything that isn’t is irrelevant. Folks need better coaching for sparring or fighting to de-form them and focus on tactics and natural movement-which is where the WCK will fit in.