"Average" MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Hey guys,

There are enough threads talking about the lack of skills of TMA, Wing CHun, etc. I hoped to drive discussion towards those that worked with MMA people and how that experienced worked (or didn’t). Did they gain any knowledge about their wing chun from it, or knowledge about fighting in general. Not interested in people that havn’t done it or people who think it can’t be done.

Every time I spar I find out new things. I tend to appreciate the things I learned prior to sparring. I can see how easily I don’t adhear to the skills I train, but I also see the ill effects of not adhearing to those skills. I do much better. Sparring at the level I am currently doing it is allowing me to better understand my wing chun. I have yet to work with MMA people, but I plan to change that shortly. My goal isn’t to out perform them, but to see how I act and what mistakes I make. Hence my question. How have others experiences worked for them?

22

[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;804389]Which video?[/QUOTE]

Did he ever post what video he’s talking about?

23

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;804456]Really?
What Traditional mindset is that?
The traditional mindset of “one shot, one kill”, to understate the importance of making every shot count and the seriousness of being able to avoid and shot?
The mindset of “the more you bleed in training, the less in combat” ?
The mindset of “only by testing under fire our skills can we be sure of them”?

All views I have learned in TMA.

Again, I think you have a very narrow view of what YOU think are TMA.
You should realise that others have had very different experiences.[/QUOTE]

The evidence of the results of TMA fighters speaks for itself. Those people who trained with one shot, one kill, who bled more in training, who tested their skills under fire, haven’t seen to achieve any significant results, have they? Where are all the good TMA fighters? On Fantasy Island.

The traditional mindset is view of martial arts not based on actual fighting, and quality results or evidence pertaiing to fighting, but is characterized by being backward-looking (those Shaolin Monks or the ancestors really knew, they had the magic book), theory-based (I konw the concepts/principles of fighting, the contents of teh magic book), authority-centered (do not question the grandmaster, the holder of the magic book), that seeks to preserve itself (the magic book must be preserved) and places the tradition above the individual (you must do what the magic book says).

I’m sure you learned lots of “views” in the TMAs (if anything, they talk a good game), you just won’t develop much in the way of fighting skills in the TMAs. And that’s because of the nature of traditional training is unrealistic (not alive) exercises.

24

No I didn’t. That is not relevant to the discussion really and I have a hard time finding it since that thread was so active and it is buried.

25

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;804523]The evidence of the results of TMA fighters speaks for itself. Those people who trained with one shot, one kill, who bled more in training, who tested their skills under fire, haven’t seen to achieve any significant results, have they? Where are all the good TMA fighters? On Fantasy Island.

The traditional mindset is view of martial arts not based on actual fighting, and quality results or evidence pertaiing to fighting, but is characterized by being backward-looking (those Shaolin Monks or the ancestors really knew, they had the magic book), theory-based (I konw the concepts/principles of fighting, the contents of teh magic book), authority-centered (do not question the grandmaster, the holder of the magic book), that seeks to preserve itself (the magic book must be preserved) and places the tradition above the individual (you must do what the magic book says).

I’m sure you learned lots of “views” in the TMAs (if anything, they talk a good game), you just won’t develop much in the way of fighting skills in the TMAs. And that’s because of the nature of traditional training is unrealistic (not alive) exercises.[/QUOTE]

I think you have had some horrific experiences with TMA, I feel for you.
Some of us have had nothing but good ones, well, most of them have been good LOL !
As for good TMA, guys like Andy Hug and Filho, all those Judokas and Thai fighters out there, yeah, where are they…

26

I think southernkf may have been referring to Bullshido’s “MMA sucks” video.

Why waste your time arguing with Terence? You aren’t going to change his mind, and if you have any sense at all he’s not going to change yours. Ignore his posts, they’re pretty much all identical anyway.

27

T just believes you cant have a TMA that has more modern approaches to fighting. He generalises believing that if a style is referred to as a TMA…
its exactly that, traditional

  • something unchanged since inception centuries ago.

Which is a case of style using you, not you using the style… the very thing ive been taught not to do.

Moreover he thinks that if you blend traditional stuff with modern stuff you are still stuck in the dark ages - they dont lend skills to one another.

In this regard I believe hes only talking about one particular part of a whole community (although his generalisations seem aimed at the community as a whole)

Which there in, lies the hump. His ramblings are misplaced - they should be left in the comments of those less than average youtube videos he seems to think represent any and all people that lable themselves with the same style.

He’s a product of his own experiences which obviously were so bad he feels he needs to save others from the same ill fate.
Why else would he do what he does here, on a VT forum - day in day out ?

Its a catch 22 with this guy.

A more modern approach is need.
Im aware and changing the method while keeping the style.
No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

Rinse repeat…

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

TROLL.

DREW

28

[QUOTE=Liddel;804639]
No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.
[/QUOTE]
You left out a couple of variants..

The If it works it’s not real WCK.. (T)

The If it works it’s in spite of the other training. (D)

The If it works it’s because the other guy was little.. (D)

Hmmmm…

What others can we think of?

29

[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;804389]Which video?[/QUOTE]
That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2288188

30

[QUOTE=YungChun;804651]That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2288188[/QUOTE]

Those were awesome videos. One day I’d like to spar with someone like that.

Friendly, and learning from each other.

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[QUOTE=Anthony_ATT;804655]Those were awesome videos. One day I’d like to spar with someone like that.

Friendly, and learning from each other.[/QUOTE]Anthony,
You’ve touched on a very important truth here. You can learn alot during a friendly exchange with someone. It allows you to work on your skills, timing, footwork etc. I truely hope that you get to “spar” like that from time to time.

Bill

32

[QUOTE=YungChun;804651]That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2288188[/QUOTE]

Or did you mean these clips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcr67dmiaDI

33

Wow out of 6½ min of vid, it shows 15 seconds against a WC practicisioner and still feel the need to specificly mention that style in the headline :rolleyes:

34

[QUOTE=Matrix;804673]Anthony,
You’ve touched on a very important truth here. You can learn alot during a friendly exchange with someone. It allows you to work on your skills, timing, footwork etc. I truely hope that you get to “spar” like that from time to time.

Bill[/QUOTE]

friendly exchanges are great when both parties truly understand that they are going light contact and as such, especially in regards to striking, the results are quite irrelevant.
In any match up where striking is involved, hard contact ( if not full) must be done or it will have ZERO effect on the outcome UNLESS the person receiving the strikes is “honest” enough to react to them.
Then again, it hard to react to “slaps” and we go back to the same problem.

Light contact is great for grappling, not so much for striking or MMA.

35

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;804728]friendly exchanges are great when both parties truly understand that they are going light contact and as such, especially in regards to striking, the results are quite irrelevant.
In any match up where striking is involved, hard contact ( if not full) must be done or it will have ZERO effect on the outcome UNLESS the person receiving the strikes is “honest” enough to react to them.
Then again, it hard to react to “slaps” and we go back to the same problem.

Light contact is great for grappling, not so much for striking or MMA.[/QUOTE]

The real problem IME when going at a lower intensity is maintaining the realism, to behave, act, respond, etc. as you really would while going 100%. People who don’t spend much time really sparring/fighting at 100% often believe what they are doing will work at 100% (theory) and that all they will need to do is bump up the intensity should they ever need to. This is not the case. Going at intensity (100%) limits a great deal those things we can really do, how we can act, react, behave, etc. There are all kinds of ways to walk funny but if you run full-out (sprint), you’ll find your body can only move in one way.

So you need to begin in your training with that understanding. Much of the stuff people commonly train in WCK just won’t work at intensity. They beleive it will, but if they put it in the pressure-cooker, they would see they can’t really do it. So to continue to practice that way of moving is essentially a waste of time: you’re practicing to do something you never will be able to do. Which means you are training to fail.

As I said, you need to begin your training with an understanding and appreciation of what you can really do at 100%, not in theory, but in reality. This comes only from experience – your own and your instructor (presuming he knows, which means he can do it atintensity himself). Once you can do it at 100% under realistic conditions (in realistic sparring - more on this below), then and only then can you “lower” the intensity in your training. But you still need to keep going back to full intensity to maintain the check on the realism.

Two other related things:

First, anytime we are not practicing/training at full intensity there is a tendency to let unrealsitic crap creep in to what we are doing. Our bodies naturally try to find the easiest ways to perform. At lower intensities and especially with unrealsitic conditions this means finding ways that may use less movement, energy, etc. and still succeed. But those things won’t work at higher intensity under realsitic conditions. It is very easy to trick ourselves. You must keep this in mind and constantly go back to full intensity training to check yourself.

Second, everyone spars. But most sparring is not realistic. It doesn’t correspond to the conditions, intensity, actions, etc. of a full-out, 100%, destroy-the-guy fight. Most often it is more like play-fighting. Play fighting won’t develop realsitic skills. Only realistic training/sparring builds those skills.

36

You need a balance of hard contact and moderate contact, you can’t go “balls to the wall” all the time.
And while light contatc can be usefull when introducing sparring to a rookie, it should be very small part of ones training (if at all) once harder contact has begun.

37

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;804745]You need a balance of hard contact and moderate contact, you can’t go “balls to the wall” all the time.
And while light contatc can be usefull when introducing sparring to a rookie, it should be very small part of ones training (if at all) once harder contact has begun.[/QUOTE]

I’m not suggesting (where did you read that I was?) going 100% all of the time. Just regularly. A trainee can reduce the intensity once they know how to move at intensity. Then, they can practice moving as they will really be moving. But they can only know that from moving at intensity first. They need to routinely and regularly go back to full intensity to keep their training (at lower intensity) honest.

38

Wow, I give up.

you all ***** at terence, but you all are actually worse at hijacking threads and not discussing topics. This thread went off course prior to Terence and now we are three pages in to the topic with allmost no one commenting on the topic and Terence only making up about 3 -4 posts. Yikes.

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn’t matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced. But we can’t generate usefull discussion, so I’ll bail out and you guys can continue on taking this thread where ever it is going. I’ll just chime in on various posts from time to time.

39

[QUOTE=southernkf;804881]Wow, I give up.

you all ***** at terence, but you all are actually worse at hijacking threads and not discussing topics. This thread went off course prior to Terence and now we are three pages in to the topic with allmost no one commenting on the topic and Terence only making up about 3 -4 posts. Yikes.

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn’t matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced. But we can’t generate usefull discussion, so I’ll bail out and you guys can continue on taking this thread where ever it is going. I’ll just chime in on various posts from time to time.[/QUOTE]

You wanted to know:

“how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced?”

Let’s rephrase the question: how can boxers develop better skills and learn their art and what others have experienced? How can BJJ people develop better skill and learn their art and what others have experienced?

We, as fighters, must all do it the same way. This isn’t rocket science.

The answer is by DOING IT, by going out and training with proven good fighters, sparring with good fighters. If you don’t do that, you’ll never be a good boxer, a good BJJ fighter or a good WCK fighter or a good MMA fighter. Use the same training process that all proven fighters use and all good open-skill athletes use. That’s the answer.

Simple.

Do you think you are going to learn anything from boxers who haven’t done that, from BJJ people who haven’t done that, from MMA people who haven’t done that – then why believe you can learn anything from WCK people who haven’t done that?

40

Hi Terence,

I understand what your saying. You have been saying that for a while. I am not interesting in debating the “just do it” mentality. What I am asking is what did those that did it get from it? I have been sparring (not currently with MMA people) and I have found all kinds of interesting things from my experience. So far most of it has validated what I learned.

So, I’ll ask you, what has your experience been when training with MMA people? Did it help you understand wing chun any better? Did you find wing chun doesn’t work, it works when modified, always works, or something different? I am not so much interested in hearing how bad wing chun sucks. We get that view enough. I am interested in hearing if any one had successful interactions. Not necessarily winning and dominating, but they were able to work out and identify fixable problems in technique, form, implementation, strategy, etc.