While I agree that there are multiple ways of handling a given situation, I would argue that there are “right” and “wrong” ways of doing things. Even amongst the “right” answers there are good-better-best solutions. The system behind <-insert CMA name here-> usuually has guiding principles that provide the structure for the system as a whole. These principles tend to define which approach is best.
In the case of the clip I selected, here are a few of the key things that bother me.
1- The defender is lowering his head and putting it forward, making it an easy target for a counter.
2- Overall balance is jeopardized by this movement as well.
3- The head is moving directly into the attack, which would have a multiplying effect on the overall force at impact, thereby assisting the attacker in knocking you out.
4- The defender is “catching” the kick long after his shin would be taken out. At the very least his stance would be disrupted.
All of these things add up to making the attacker’s job that much easier. Please keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1- The defender is lowering his head and putting it forward, making it an easy target for a counter.
Agree on this, the “neck mopping” will be an excellent counter here. But the “knee seizing” is also the counter for “neck mopping”. It’s all depend who is ahead of whom.
2- Overall balance is jeopardized by this movement as well.
Overall balance (forward leaning) can generate momentum and momentum can generate power to “run down” your opponent.
3- The head is moving directly into the attack, which would have a multiplying effect on the overall force at impact, thereby assisting the attacker in knocking you out.
In order for your opponent to knock you out, he must drop his kicking leg first. That will give you a chance to “shoot” at that leg since your hand are already there and your momentum is already going.
4- The defender is “catching” the kick long after his shin would be taken out. At the very least his stance would be disrupted.
Don’t know what do you mean “take out”. If you turn your shin into your opponent’s kick. It’s your shin against his shin and nobody has any advantage over the other. It’s force against force and whoever can take the most pain will win. The kicker does not necessary has any advantage on this.
Again we are talking about the risk and reward and whether it’s worthy while to take that risk. In my opinion, if you can finish a fight in 3 seconds then don’t wait for 5 seconds. Take your opponent down ASAP.
Sure, the point it is finish it as quickly as possible. The best way to accomplish that is to move right in. Then you are in the eye of the hurricane, so to speak. Standing in the power zone of a kick is asking for trouble.
I just think that the approach shown in the video is seriously flawed. The attacker in the videos is falling backwards as he strikes. A more aggressive opponent will be driving in, as you bend down to lift the leg, the momentum of their entire body will be upon you. Their kicking leg will come down under the full force of their body weight, you won’t be able to just pick it up. Then you’ll be in a world of hurt. But hey … if you can make it work for you then more power to you.
I know and that’s why it’s still just “sport” and not “combat”.
Meaning what? The Thai’s training six hours a day for sport (it’s much more than sport to the Thais, BTW), you do your six hours a week or whatever for “combat”? I’m betting the farm on him still.
In the following clip you can see that the contact point is the upper arm and not the fore arm.
Well, yeah, OK. I didn’t find that kick or that clip an overly convincing proof of the efficacy of your strategy.
A cracking skull could be worse than a broken arm. Will that be a good “trade off”?
From my earlier post: “A broken forearm is probably better than a fractured skull.”
If you want to pick an argument with me, suggesting I disagree with my own statements won’t get you very far
Not to sound too much like a phalace, but you know what I think is hilarious about this whole theoretical argument? That most of the people here don’t actually know how to throw a thai round kick–let alone defend against one.
The kicks are powerful no doubt, and yes can break bones. But people who practice muay thai get hit with these kicks many, many, many times both in training as well as in their fights. I myself have bruises on my arms, legs, and body from taking these kicks. They hurt like hell if you take one hard–but then we are also conditioned to take them as well. We kick each other in the sides, the legs, and yes—even use a double arm block to block them when no other options are available. The obvious choice would be not to be there–I.E. to move you head out of the way or move in or counter the kick by blocking or jamming at the knee or thigh (not necessarily with your own kick either, you can do it with your arm, elbow, etc.) You can teep the body, cut kick the lower leg, you can move in to clinch and knee, you can cover with the arm as you sway to absorb the blow. Even when you “block” you’re not completely stiff…you give a little to help disperse the kinetic energy. And last but not least let’s not forget the ever popular take-down.
And no offense guys–but I’m sorry–gwun sao or kwan sao will NOT work against a good thai kick. You’ll break your arms or wish you had. In my wing chun experience nothing is used to directly block anyway…so why would you use a gwan sao to “block” at all let alone block a round kick that’s the equivelent of a baseball bat being swung at you? And let’s say that it did work as it was shown in that first vid—he’d be eating a right cross a millisecond after that kick…but both the hands are used for the gwun sao? Oh well…
Glad you’re enjoying yourself. I don’t practice Thai exclusively but I practice Thai striking and kicks in my shooto class taught by a world class shooto ex-champion who has also one Thai comps in Thailand, so yes, my kicking still sucks compared to those guys but I’ve had lots of practice of defending against good ones, and eating them too!
And apart from theoretical arguments, what other kind can you have on the net!? LOL
Good post, though I have practiced even kwan sao against roundhouses, as you say, it’s not the ideal… if I use any kind of block (though I usually use the word deflection) it’ll be moving in at an angle and like you say at the knee to jam them up.
“And no offense guys–but I’m sorry–gwun sao or kwan sao will NOT work against a good thai kick. You’ll break your arms or wish you had.” (Vankuen)
***I AGREE. Got to raise your leg to take some of the brunt of the Thai roundhouse kick. Kwan won’t cut it against a powerful roundhouse. And I usually also try to capture the leg with my arm as well.
But the question wing nut is why would you want to? Are you doing a kwan sao at the knee simpy because you want to use wing chun or because it’s the most efficient way to defend against it?
My understanding of wing chun is that we (as wing chunners) should use as little movement as possible to achieve the desired effect. Therefore if a defense can be made simply by leaning back, stepping in, or simply by dropping an elbow into the knee, why would you want to use two arms–tangle them up into a more time consuming position to achieve the same thing? That’s the real question.
And Mat–my spell check wasn’t working…I meant to say ****…but of course that’s been edited as you can see.
You have a good point about the kwan sao. I only used it because it was part of the topic in the last few posts. If you can get to the knee on time, you could use one arm without a problem and hit with the other and be more effective for sure.
If you move forward with the right timing, you could get away without contact on the opponents leg (with either arm) and just use both arms for attack.
I’m not saying that I think this is the best thing to do, just another option.
Insurance. In this case two arms may be better than one. Sure stepping in is good to take some of the wind out of his sails but you want to step in with an offensive move too…
so the tan (albeit maybe nailed to your side) absorbs the kick just above the knee, the elbow goes into the soft inside of the thigh or the nuts/bladder, followed by eg, the elbow arm flicking up for an uppercut/bounce punch/lan sao and the tan hand turning into a jum to back up the unbalance… OK so we’re getting too theoretical and whatiffy here, but you get my point. If the unbalance is going well, it’s gonna be too difficult to head hunt too.
And it may be whatiffy but I’ve used it to my satisfaction anyway!
And sure, if I can I don’t want to touch the leg, just take his head off with my hands… but anyone with any experience will have that covered.
But you practice gwun sao against a middle roundhouse right?
As for the capture, that’s a good point too. My shooto teacher always recommends catchinhg a midlevel roundhouse as you step away to avoid the short ribs and the brunt of the force.
