Answer to Wongsifu's Takedown Question... a bit long

This is in answer to Wong’s question about takedowns.

I apologize for the extra capital letters. I’m hitting return in word, and it’s
automatically doing that. Secondly, I don’t pretend to be an expert. I only have
experience. There are more ways to do things than just the ones I describe.
I’m only going to go into general principles, not specifics of how to execute
The movement. I am also not going to delve deeply into set ups.

As all you Chinese wrestling/judo types know, there’s about a billion plus ways to
Take someone down. I’m not going to get into the combination joint-lock/takedowns.
First, I don’t really know a whole lot of them, secondly, I’m not convinced of their
Effectiveness. That’s not a slight on anybody, just my thoughts on the subject.

Broadly speaking, takedowns are either upper-body attacks, or leg attacks.
The differences between the two are fairly obvious. One set focuses on
Manipulation and control of the upper body to effect a takedown. The
Other set focuses on taking people’s legs out from underneath them.

Upper body attacks include: Duck-unders, throws, arm drags, front headlocks, foot-sweeps and snap-downs.

Lower body attacks include: Double-leg takedowns, Single leg takedowns, ankle-picks, Knee-picks and high crotches.

I’ll start with upper body attacks. Generally speaking, upper body attacks begin from a clinch Of some sort. This is not to say that you can’t step directly into a throw, but this is not Easy to do. Being in a proper clinch affords you,as the attacker, the opportunity to sense and direct your Opponent’s movement. From the clinch, you don’t need to see… you can work blind, Strictly off your opponent’s actions/reactions. A handy skill, since your face is frequently Buried in somebody’s body part while you are executing your attack.

If you wish to understand the basic principle of the clinch, grab a partner. With your dominant hand, grab the back of your partner’s neck. Keep your elbow in, pointed down towards the ground, with your forearm up and down on their chest. There is more to it than that, but, you will quickly notice your ability to:

  1. Move your opponent forwards and backwards, and side to side. This allows you to
    Start offbalancing your opponent to hit takedowns.

  2. Prevent your opponent from moving forward into you. Very nice if they try to attack you.

  3. Make yourself heavy on your opponent. Make them carry your weight! This roots them to The ground, slowing their movement, relative to you.

With upper body attacks, you want to break the opponent’s balance in any one of the eight directions; Forward, backwards, right, left, or to the four corners. You can also break their balance UP. Where the head and hips go, the rest of the body follows. If I lift you off the ground, counters become difficult.

Generally speaking, duck unders break balance to the side or the forward corner opposite the side you are attacking. This allows you to come under their arm to the side and behind your opponent, setting you up for lifts, throws, trips, and sweeps. They are best used on an upright opponent, or somebody taller.

Hip throws require a back step that gets YOUR hips INTO theirs, the resulting bump breaks their balance up. All it takes is brief lightness to reap their legs in some way and throw them. There are many variations on set ups and themes, but they all still require that you get your hips into theirs. There are some other throws that function similarly to trips, where you break the balance to the corner. (O-soto-Gari type stuff)

Arm drags are good to use on the REAR leg side. IE, if my opponent has a staggered stance, then you arm drag the arm on the rear leg side to get them to move their rear foot forwards. This sets up for a clinch or for a lower body attack. Also good to set up for a fireman’s carry. If your opponent has a square stance, then the arm drag breaks balance forward and is a good set up for either a hip throw or footsweep or a front headlock/snap down, depending on whether you arm drag UP or DOWN. (Up is throw, footsweep. DOWN is snap down, front headlock.

Footsweeps are difficult to master, but a truly incredible weapon. The necessity for proper timing is paramount. You break balance, typically to a back corner and UP, and then sweep the light foot while pulling hard in the direction of the light foot. I’m horrible at them. Rhadi Ferguson makes it look like magic. Footsweeps REQUIRE that your opponent be upright and square to you. It’s very hard to footsweep a staggered stance because most staggered stance wrestlers place their weight a little more on their forward leg, maybe 65-35, and reaching the rear leg is almost impossible.

A snap down is best used on an opponent who has a low staggered stance, or who has a square stance and is bent over at the waist (bad). You basically club the back of their neck with your forearm, yank on one arm near the armpit (Have a friend bend over at the waist, and where you grab becomes immediately apparent), and snap them forward and down into the mat while you sprawl slightly, and get your weight on top of them. A quick go-behind move of some time is then executed, or you can flow into a front headlock.

A front headlock is used to control the opponent’s weight and is typically used on an opponent with a low staggered stance or bent over at the waist. You use the front headlock to force the opponent’s arms and head into the mat. A go-behind of some kind is executed to get your opponent’s back. You see a lot of snap down to front headlock combos.

Leg attacks all begin with a basic penetration step. This is the wrestler’s shot you hear about. Examples of leg attacks and the penetration step can be found on Les Gutches’ website, which I’ve listed at the end of this post.

A double leg takedown is best used on a square opponent. You shoot in, and drive through your opponent with your head to one side, and then lift and dump your opponent to the side your head is NOT on, using your head as a lever to push the opponent’s body over and down. You may also trip with the trail leg by placing it behind the leg of your opponent. Many variations exist, with a major one being a version where the head is directly in the sternum and the hands on the legs near the knee. You pull with your hands and push with your head, taking the legs out from underneath him.

A single leg takedown can be used on a square or staggered opponent. You shoot for the closest leg generally. The head goes on the INSIDE on a single, with your ear placed close and tight to the opponent’s leg, thigh, waist, etc. The leg is then either lifted, tripped or spun for the take down. There are about 8 gazillion finishes for this attack. A high-crotch is a variation on the single where the head goes on the OUTSIDE, and the opponents arm on that side is controlled so you can quickly “turn the corner” and get behind your opponent for the takedown.

An ankle pick is generally used in combination with a clinch, and can be used on either a square or staggered opponent. The general concept is to get them to take a step forward with one leg, then shoot in while pulling DOWN with the hand on their head, doubling them over while you grab the ankle. Their weight should be on their heels and dumping them becomes an easy task. Knee picks are similar in form, but the knee is attacked vice the ankle. Finishes are again variable.

That about sums it up for basic attacks. Most of the attacks you see will be refinements or variations on these themes. There are some other, very original attacks, such as the boot-scoot, but they are still used in combination with one of the above.

For good examples of the leg attacks, check out Les Gutches website. It demonstrates the penetration step very well.

Les Gutches Techniques page… no throws as far as I can see.

For some throw animations, try this

Judo Throws

Yes, I know they have a gi on. There are many that can be readily adapted to no gi. For especially obvious hip-throw examples check out the “goshi” techniques.

Man that Judo site rocks. I was on there a long time ago when I was researching Judo techniques for t-shirt designs.

Jaguar Wong
The 6th Deadly Venom!

[i]“If it doesn’t work, punch him in the mouth and try again”

  • Professor Ed O’malley[/i]

Good God! takedowns are truly a science. I’ve got quite a few wrestler friends (one’s even a wrestling coach at a high school), but they’ve never broken down the takedowns like that.

I have learned quite a bit about my style by learning from wrestlers. Apperantly there’s just some stuff that’s lost no matter how much “grappling” is in your style. A lot of times I see the techniques there, but the details of the actual applications are lost. IMHO The only way to bring it back and keep it is to go over the stuff with an experienced grappler (wrestlers and Judoka in my experience) and practice it all the freakin’ time.

submissions/breaks are different all together. I love Chin Na, but I also love BJJ, so I do my best to blend them, since they share so many principles anyway. :slight_smile:

Thanks Merryprankster. This is truly valuable info for me. (now if only I can keep it away from Tigerstyle :mad: )

Jaguar Wong
The 6th Deadly Venom!

[i]“If it doesn’t work, punch him in the mouth and try again”

  • Professor Ed O’malley[/i]

To see some Good throws from the San Shou world go here and Look at the second clip up from the bottom (Albert Pope).

“Information is power”

ttt

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled “Hm.” regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

Hey, i dont know who you were writting that for…

but im glad i clicked here, that was a great post, Xtremly helpful to me, i knew some of the techniques, but as that one guy said (dont think i looked at the name) i missed the “science” of it…very helpful, thanx

“True victory is giving all of yourself without regret”-Ryu

“Your best move is the move you regret not doing”-Fei Long

“Are you prepared to fight today? Someone else is as we speak”-Apprentice

Merryprankster,
Thanks for the link.
My penetration step could use some fine tuning. :slight_smile:

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

phew great stuff that answered my question and thanks for the links too they were all helpful

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound