Aikido and Internal Arts

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
61

Originally posted by Becca
Yes, Vapor, but if they go at it with the intensity of limp spinach, you must use force generated by YOUR actions to accomplish the throw. And that’s run-of-the-mill grappling. Aikido uses these concepts, as do most arts, but what makes Aikdo special is the underlying principals, such as chin na.

Mmmmm, left over curry from last nite was bit heavy for breakfast. Now I want to get back to bed. :slight_smile:

If someone use intesity of limp spinach, it is easier for beginner to do lock because there are not much resistance to such technique. If someone is soft because s/he is following your aikido technique, more you force technique, more likely that he will counter you with lock or throw. Ideal Aikido lock or throw is done by applying minimum foce to your uke’s body alignement/balance so better you are at aikido, less force one use.

Btw, underlying technique of aikido maybe ChinNa while underlying prinicple of aikido is not ChinNa (as in techniques) in my view. Morihei Ueshiba got all aikido techniques from Daito ryu Aikijujitu. However, Morihei progressively eliminated more dangerous and vicious ChinNa locks from aikido. Some say that Morihei “watered down” aikijujitu to keep it in accordance with his philosophy. The other say that it is more to do with change in approach to martial arts. Ki aikido, the softest style of aikido don’t even have atemi (strike) in their kata performance. Also there are clear shift in emphasis from structure of technique to flow of technique between soft and hard style of aikido. Similar difference can be seen between Chen and Yang style, I think. While Chen contain fajing expression in the form, Yang Chen Fu’s form doesn’t, though i think it is implied in the form. And haven’t we heard of some Chen stylist saying Yang is watered down taijiquan and less martial.

62

Well, what I have been repeatedly told in my dojo are

  1. Float
  2. Relax
  3. Follow
  4. Tanden

Is this tai chi or what?

63

yup, I agree

Those elements are surtainly very important in taiji.
ps. I checked out the link you posted, very interesting.
Have a good one!

64

Greetings..

Although my experience with Aikido is limited to +/- a years training in the mid 70’s and contests/play with other players during the following years.. my current feeling is that Aikido is more “technical” than Tai Chi, requiring more complexity in execution and more specific methods of attack to be effective.. One of the more attractive features of Tai Chi, for me, is its “general” usefulness.. regardless of how long it takes to become functional at Tai Chi’s internal nuances, the applications blend and flow so well into each other that the ease of execution and effectiveness of dealing with secondary responses make it my art of choice.. Although i borrow from Aikido and many other arts i like this analogy.. “though i may walk many paths, the WAY i walk is Tai Chi..”

Be well..

65

“As of aikido, I do feel that some people are making assesement of the arts without much of experience. Especially about the comment that aikido use force to apply technique. This comment is rather ignorant of the function of aikido kata training.”-Vapour

Vapour you put a link to judo information. Five principles. The second principle I took to back my concept that a lesser efficiency of Aikido is related to force of attack.

“2. Demonstrates the principle of using the energy of the opponent’s attack to defeat them, or victory through yielding.”

Less energy; less able to defeat.

I indicated Force. I might have generalized. I think that a better term or at least a factor to be considered is Commitment. Perhaps with little to no copmmitment on attack or defense Aikido’s efficiency deminishes. This is perhaps more a correct, my think.

The controling aspects of Aikido seize/control–in Chinese that might be referred to as chin-na, might be accompanied with movemet. When attacked, the movement is momentum–momentum of defender’s yielding And the attacker’s force of atttack.

“Uke-Nage Relationship
Uke (literally “one who receives”, the one who takes the fall) and nage (the thrower) have a very special relationship. Unlike many martial artists who train against an opponent, the aikidoka trains with a partner. There is no competition in aikido, no pitting of one person against another. Instead, each partner is half of a whole, each having equal responsibility for the learning experience.”–Aikido West handbook

“In aikido kata training, tori will make pre-aranged attack which uke counter it by using an aikido technique. Few comments about use of force in aikido is based on the perception that it is uke who is learning technique, IMO.”–Vapour

Vapour, it seems to be my impression that what you said where I’ve quoted you seems opposite-ish to What’s in the Aikido group’s handbook.

Few comments about use of force in aikido…If I bring up a point that wasn’t mentioned/talked about before doesn’t make my mention wrong.

A billion people Can be wrong. Merely a concept, perhaps some might say.

66

Vapor: I see where your comming from now.:slight_smile:

67

I recommend everyone with less experience of aikido to do some “detective work”. :slight_smile:
www.aikidojournal.com
www.aikidofaq.com

68

Vapour. it is my concept that having a technique Can help in understanding what is involved with that technique. There are no Aikido techniques-ish. All aikido teis reactionary. an attack is required. If you attack with it it is jujitsu joint manipulation and you are a scoundral-ish (seems most likely).

Not much experience? If you even think you know mine, please tell me.

Basically, not too offended if at all. Merely~ interested in what you think you know.

[SIZE=3]I[/SIZE] No_Know

“Plus aikido’s stress use of power from hara (abdominal) or tanden. Do you think taijiquan is not soft because it use fajing? Aikido technique can be applied aggressively if one adhere to aikdo principle. Typical example is Shomenuchi Irimi Ikkyo.”

I might not have been speaking that Aikido cannot be ferocious. It can be agressive as you seemingly like to be able to point out.

It seems as though Aikido takes advantage~. The agressor has the commitment of extension. The Aikido is intercepting then, unbroken joint manipulation to off balance. Continual joint manipulation to steer the once agressor to an incapacitating or subduing end of the continual lead of keeping the once agressor’s balance.

Follow seems to be an attempt to keep from hurting worse or not as bad.

…whatever whatever very good.

69

"Not much experience? If you even think you know mine, please tell me.

Basically, not too offended if at all. Merely~ interested in what you think you know."

In case this was directed towards me which I´m not sure of,I´d like to make sure that I was not trying to assume what anyone´s experience is but rather pointing out a few excellent resources to learn about aikido.

70

"Well, what I have been repeatedly told in my dojo are

  1. Float
  2. Relax
  3. Follow
  4. Tanden

Is this tai chi or what?"–Vapour

Perhaps Vapour, like there is hard in soft and soft in hard, things are shared.

I tgink that these things might be able to be found in T’ai Chi Ch’uan there might be more that makes up T’ai’Chi Ch’uan than those four things that might make-up Most of Aikido.

Also What makes T’ai Chi Ch’uan Inernal that Aikido does not have-ish While Aikido being Spiritual yet not Internal is the Mind to move. Aikido might have this at some point or throughout; however, it does not seem as trademark or requirement in Aikido as it is in The three Classically/traditionally/Stereotypically Chinese Internal Arts~ of Hsing-I, Pa Kua and T’ai Chi Ch’uan.

71

Well, there shouldn’t be attack or defence in taijiquan as well. I just wanted to point out that any legit system seems to have common fundamental principle. That is why I put up the link to Judo kata.

I practice the softest style of aikido called ki style and they tend to emphaise flow of technique rather than structure. In general I see the approach (flow v.s. structure v.s. relaxation) as equivelant to Yang though aikido’s approach is obviously from grappling arts rather than boxing art like taijiquan.

Another thing about ki aikido is its emphais on ki visualisation training know as ki exercise. In ki exercise, one hold one of fundamental posture in aikido in static or dynamic movement. Then one’s partner test the stability of posture. For example, in one posture, I hold both hand forward palm together. Then the parter push my hands toward me. At this point, I’m told to imagine that my hand is streching into the wall of dojo and beyond. Funny thing is that when I project my will/intent, my posture become more stable. Oh, and in every movement, we imagine that ki eminating from tanden especially out of tip of finger as if your arms are nozzle. Pretty much the same as “ki follow yi”.

72

With whom do you study ki aikido? I study with Shizuo Imaizumi, who is the cheif instructor here:

www.shinbudokai.org

Are you a member of the ki no kenkyukai?

73

No, I’m in U.K. My instructor’s sensei was a student of Sensei William, a first dan grade stucent of Abe who broght aikido to Britain. William sensei switiched to Ki aikido later.

74

Abbe, Kenshiro

(1915-1 December 1985). 8th dan judo. Began judo training at age 14. Received 2nd dan from DAI NIHON BUTOKUKAI at age 15. Promoted to 4th dan in 1933 and then 5th dan in 1934 by the Butokukai, said to be the youngest holder of the latter rank at this time. Graduated in 1937 from Butokukai Judo College in Kyoto. Won overall trophy in All-Japan East-West competition and captured 5th dan championship in TENRANJIAI judo tournament also in 1937. Promoted to 6th dan in 1938 and 7th dan in 1945. Chief Instructor of Kyoto Police and Doshisha University beginning in 1949. Became editor of Japanese Judo Magazine in 1951. Moved to England in 1955 and established the Abbe Judo School in 1956. Founded British Judo Council in 1958 and became Founder and President of the International Butokukai in 1960. Abbe is credited as the first to teach aikido in the U. K. He also brought over Tadashi ABE from France to conduct a series of aikido seminars. He remained in U. K. until 1964 when he returned to Tokyo for the Olympics

Interesting. Cool.

75

Who did your sensei study ki aikido with?

76

I don’t give out name of someone I personally know. Sorry.

77

Interesting. Fair enough.

78

I expect this thread is very close to dead at this point, but I feel compelled to write in defense of Chiba Sensei and question some of the slanderous remarks Kumkuat has made about him.

I have not been training in Aikido for very long at all, but I asked my Sensei who is a personal student of Chiba Sensei about some of the points Kumkuat made. I must also point out that while I have only been training in Aiikido for approximatly five months, I met him several years ago and had the pleasure of breaking bread with him and his spouse on several occasions in the mid nineties.

  1. I work in mental health as well. It seems almost silly to even address this accusation, but for the record, Chiba Sensei is not mentally ill. He does not suffer from psychotic delusions, nor is he psycopathic. He also does not exibit the typical sympotoms of a personality disorder such as narcissisim or sadisim.

  2. While I am not interested in disputing the perception that Kumkuat had (he obviously harbors a great resentment against Chiba Sensei), I am curious about the details of the incident, because it would shed some light on Sensei’s actions. Kumkuat claims thet Sensei “bridged (his) elbow” using “Shiho nage”.

I just approached my Sensei and asked him what this could mean. Sensei showed several applications for Shiho Nage, and I musty say, I have no idea how someone’s elbow could be threatened with this maneuver. Shiho Nage brings uke’s wrist behind his shoulder. The elbow is flexed. stress is placed on uke’s shoulder and wrist. Because the elbow is flexed in an upright position, not open, there is virtually no way it could be “popped out of the socket”.

Let’s assume though that this impossible situation actually did occur. Giving Kumkuat the benifit of the doubt, I expect that as an advanced student, Kumkuat would be able to take ukemi for Chiba Sensei. Apparently Sensei had the same expectation. The fact that Kumkuat’s elbow was left intact is proof to me that Chiba was not interested in hurting him.

  1. According to Kumkuat, he is writing the story about Chiba’s confrontation with Wang Shu jin, as something he heard from someone else who heard from someone who said… ah how many times has THIS happened on KFO? It makes a good story, but hearsay dosen’t hold up in court because it’s not a fair way to judge a person’s character. Period.

I’d rather look at how people chose to tell this story. In Chiba’s version nobody wins, and he expresses respect for Wang. In Kumkuat’s version, Chiba sounds like a punk and Wang is the taoist hero! Hey, I’ve met the man, and this does not describe him at all…

In closing, I’d like to say that it’s a very good thing that Kumkuat did not continue to train with Chiba Sensei. Of course for a student to feel any loyalty for a teacher, he or she must feel comfortable and safe with ones teacher. The student also must have a sense of value for what they had learned. It is a shame that for whatever reason, that relationship was denied Sensei and Kumkuat. I have been fortunate to have had a very different experience.

79

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I’d rather look at how people chose to tell this story. In Chiba’s version nobody wins, and he expresses respect for Wang. In Kumkuat’s version, Chiba sounds like a punk and Wang is the taoist hero!

I picked up on this distinction as well. Of course, one is directly quoted by a nuetral third party and the other is definantly hearsay…:rolleyes:

80

actually that wasn’t my story. I just quoted someone’s story. I have no idea who it was.