Aikido and Internal MA connected?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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In another thread I sited several techniques that Pa Kua, Hsing-i, and Aikido appear to share, which are not just similar, but identical both in structure and application. I’m curious to see others thoughts on this, as I’ve trained a bit in all three.

The thing is, these aren’t just common similarities. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a front snap kick taught by any of the karate or Tae Kwon Do styles, or a hook punch shared between boxing and Muay Thai for example. These are practical and logical techniques that could be developed in any country, at any time, by any people, because they are efficient and practical.

Instead, the techniques I’m thinking of I had thought to be pretty unique. While they’re natural for thier intended purpose, they’re more sophisticated than usual. For example, “Golden Phoenix Spreads Wings” is a Pa Kua movement which to the untrained eye would have no practical application at all. It involes spreading your arms out, with elbows bent palm up while you step forward and turn. I’d never seen it before in another art until I was taught it in Aikido as Kokyu-ho, and though it’s extremly unusual looking, it makes for an incredibly effective throw.

Aikido also features beng chuan, tsuan chuan, and pi chuan. In fact these are the only hand techniques formally taught in most Aikido sylabuses. Aikido calls them Tsuki, Gyate-tsuki, and Shomen-uchi. Power is generated in an identical way as far as I can tell, and the basic training method of line walking is the same also.

Foot work in Aikido is pretty linear having more in common with Gao Pa Kua or Hsing-i, but the toes are always turned out in Ko-bu unless the Aikidoist is using a Bai-bu step which we call “Tenkan”.

As with Hsing-i, Aikido’s empty hand techniques all translate to the armed techniques, and the preferred weapons are very similar. Hsing-i uses Spear and saber extensively, while Aikido uses Short Spear (in practice we use Jo), and Katana (Bokken). The Jo is used in the very same way as the Spear is used in Hsing-i.

Someone posted something around here a few months ago where they noted that during their trip to Bejing University they were asked to demonstrate Aikido. The University coaches exclaimed that what they were doing looked just like Pa Kua. I don’t necessarily think this means that Aikido came from China, but it’s very interesting how similar the philosophy and actual techniques are to some CMA.

The reason that it seems so strange that Aikido has so many similarities between these arts is that Aikido has few similarities to any other traditional Japanese art. You’d think an art supposedly developed in recent times and based on older Japanese arts would look more like them. Could it be that O-Sensei, Aikido’s founder, borrowed a little from CMA? Or could it be that because he had similar goals to the internal styles that he came up with similar methods independantly?

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I have never studied Aikido. I’m just wondering does it share anything similar to the Liu He (Six Harmony) coordination used in Xingyi and other Chinese internal styles for power generation??

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It is well knwon that O-Sensei Ushiba spent time in China before returning to Japan to create Akido. The most likely art he studied in China is Bagua.

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As far as the Liu He are concerned, it’s a tough call. The terminology between the arts is different but the mechanics appear to be very similar. The preffered on-guard stance (I hesitate to call it that as most Aikido postures are transitional) is the same stance taken in Pi Chuan for San Ti. The weight is more forward in Aikido, say 70/30 as opposed to 40/60.

If you’ve studied an IMA for awhile, you’ll notice that weight distribution can vary quite a bit between teachers, let alone styles so I’m not sure how important the weight distribution difference really is. At any rate, the Aikidoka is told to move from Tanden (Dan Tien), stay relaxed, keep elbows connected to the body and dropped at all times, move from ground up, relax, extend Ki (Qi), use the eyes to focus intentent (yi), and maintain a calm spirit (shen).

So to answer you xingyiman, I’d have to say that yes, on the surface it appears that the six harmonies are recognized in Aikido, just not called such per se.

I hadn’t even thought of looking for the Liu he in Aikido until now. I’ll have to explore that one further in practice. Thanks!

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Oh, and as far as the Pa kua O-Sensei may have studied, on the surface (once again, I’m no expert), I would think it might have been Gao style as there is so much linear stuff going on with the footwork. That might explain why there’s alot of Hsing-i stuff I’m noticing.

I’ve always maintained a healthy level of scepticisim concerning a connection between the three arts, but my actual personal experience keeps leading me in that direction.

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Re: Aikido and Internal MA connected?

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Aikido also features beng chuan, tsuan chuan, and pi chuan. In fact these are the only hand techniques formally taught in most Aikido sylabuses. Aikido calls them Tsuki, Gyate-tsuki, and Shomen-uchi. Power is generated in an identical way as far as I can tell, and the basic training method of line walking is the same also.

Actually, they are not similar. They may look similar to the outside viewer, but the power generation and body method is not the same. But you have to feel it, to notice the difference.

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How is power generated in aikido anyway? I mean, do they have “internal” strength building exercises like standing post?

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How is power generated in aikido anyway?

As I already mentioned, the Aikidoka basically generates power from the axis of the Tanden, or center. We also adhere to the six harmonies, although we don’t call it such.

I mean, do they have “internal” strength building exercises like standing post?

We close each class with Kokyu dosa (breath exercise), and throughout form work we are constantly being admonished to use our centers, and recieving corrections to physical posture and the like. There are a multitude of various exercises, but I’ve never heard anything like “this exercise is for ki”, or “this exercise is external only”. It seems like this concept of internal/external is limited to China from what I can tell.

Sifu Mike Patterson, of Hsing-i fame, says that the distinction is really one of geography. He claims that the “internal” styles are simply the styles which are indigenous to China, basically those not based on Shaolin, while the external styles are all based on imports.

Alot of historians credit Sun Lu Tang with coining the phrase Internal Martial Art in order to make a distinction between his Neija Chuan and the rest.

I’m no expert in this field though, so to answer the question, I don’t know.

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Felipe, I’m willing to take your word for it, but out of curiosity, what experience do you posses in the way of Aikido?

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Hi Samurai Jack

I practiced Aikido for a year or so before I started training Choy Li Fut (before I changed to Xingyi). That was like 15 years ago.

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I’ve met several Aiki masters - none of them exhibited the power generation or skills of Xing-yi.

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MonkeySlap Too, I’ve met some absolutely astounding Hsing-i masters (George Xu, Vince Black, Mike Patterson, Leung Ke Hua), and they were no more or less astounding than the Aikido Shihan I’ve met. The power generation is similar. Who exactly were the “masters” you’ve met?

Felipe, if I told you I only trained Hsing-i a “year or so” before making definitive statements about your art, how seriously would you take my comments?

Anyhow, I didn’t post this thread to argue with people who don’t know the topic and aren’t interested in exploring it. If nobody has any facts to add, I think I’ll bow out for now.

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Originally posted by Samurai Jack

Felipe, if I told you I only trained Hsing-i a “year or so” before making definitive statements about your art, how seriously would you take my comments?

I would take them seriously if you were around Hsing I people all the time.

You asked me about my experience with Aikido myself. But apart from that, I’ve been around aikidokas for a long time, sharing stuff.

Take my comments seriously, or don’t take them. You asked for opinions, I gave you mine. Other people have agreed with what I’ve said, but it seems that you’ve made up your mind already. :slight_smile:

Good luck, then

Oh…

Anyhow, I didn’t post this thread to argue with people who don’t know the topic and aren’t interested in exploring it. If nobody has any facts to add, I think I’ll bow out for now.

Ok, man.

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1- Any external ( to the visible eye) similarities between tai chi, xing yi and bagua techniques could probably be traced to cross training and/or copying of techniques over the years. Not a big deal.

2- I have heard before the aikido has bagua influences and I could beleive it.

3- I was once told by an extremely experienced aikidoist (20-30 years expereince) that aikido only appears circular but is actually linear. ( I dont know enough to have an opinion on that but I will take his word for it)

4- From my personal experience people heavily into the japanese arts tend (aikido, diato ryu, and “koryu budo” tend to discredit any similiarity between the japanese arts and the chinese arts that predate them.

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Originally posted by Samurai Jack
At any rate, the Aikidoka is told to move from Tanden (Dan Tien)

‘Move from the dantien’ can mean, I think, two different, though related, things – movement which is coordinated around the dantien as a center, and movement which results from articulations of the dantien. I think the Aikido mandate to ‘move from the Tanden’ certainly addresses the former of these ideas, but does it also address the latter? Are there any exercises in Aikido that develop dantien articulation?

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Originally posted by Christopher M
I think the Aikido mandate to ‘move from the Tanden’ certainly addresses the former of these ideas, but does it also address the latter? Are there any exercises in Aikido that develop dantien articulation?

Everything we do, exercises, kata, and randori centers around the concept of moving from Tanden. Kokyu-dosa, meaning “breath exercise” vagely resembles Tai Chi push hands to a degree.

The two practitioners kneel in front of eachother in order to eliminate strength advantages and use of legs, and attempt to topple eachother using Tanden alone. I am not personally at a level yet where I can consciously differentiate between movement that originates from Tanden and movement that is coordinated by the Tanden, but during Kokyu-dosa you cannot move your oponent unless you relax and use your center.

When it works, you feel your lower abdomen turning in the direction that you want to go, sort of like a bowling ball rolling down a lane. If you’re relaxed it sort of feels like you’re “rolling over” your partner, and everything else is just going along for the ride if that makes any sense. Our goal is to have all of our techniques operate that effortlessly.

Does this sound like anything you’ve experienced in your practice?

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See this thread for the opinion of a man who has trained for a LONG time in Aikido, as well as xingyi.

I was curious about whether Ueshiba could have trained in Bagua, cos Bruce Frantzis talks about it in his book - well, you can read the replies (very thorough and convincing) yourself:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11036

Cheers,

Brendan

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As I understand it, O-Sensei went back to Japan with what was described as a different art than the one he left behind prior to leaving Japan.

Aikido was my first martial art. There were plenty of ki (chi) exercises that we as a class used to do before practicing techniques. But that is not a giveaway to actually building up chi. The Aikido I practiced was a variant of Ki Society Aikido. But there were no details given about how to think about breath in the body or where to focus or whatever. Yes, there were standard exercises where students focused on their “one points,” but those were not examples of doing the detailed kinds of things done in Chinese internal systems. If someone were to practice an internal art and, then, go to Aikido, the result would be much, much different.

Other differences exist, but Aikido by itself is only as effective as the current practitioners are today. It was once described to me as a “dead art” because only the master, O-Sensei, was able to do what he did with his “new chi ability.” No other student was doing what he did, and he did not pass it down to the next generation. Therefore, anyone wishing to replicate what O-Sensei did should look into Chinese internal systems. An issue of The Journal of Asian Martial Arts, which has an article on Don Draeger, has Draeger claim that any Japanese looking to learn about chi should study a Chinese system.

Doug M

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ha! so he probably did practice internal strength training.

now his students are trying to emulate effortless throws from day one. but i figure his skill was more than just perfected technique. effortless throwing being the end result of the levels he reached. i wonder what aikido would look like if they regularly practiced nei-gong hardcore… i have alot of respect for what Ueshiba tried to accomplish tho. not wanting to harm your enemy seems very “different” to most fighters…

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he was supposedly very religious tho. maybe that had sumthin to do with it…

i was reading e-budo a couple years ago. something stuck in my mind… has anyone else heard the claim that Ueshiba is quoted as saying Aikido is 90% Atemi (i think thats word for striking but my japanese is rusty or rather non-existant) ???