Hi All
I just read an Article by Hawkins Cheung on his website about a more advanced level of Wing Chun where you are softer and don’t rely on structure so much, this sounds a little like the WT way of doing things, is this common to other WC lineages, I have only ever seen every one else go the structure route ? Any more information on this would be gratefully received
Regards,
Adrian
Re: Advanced Soft Wing Chun - Hawkins Cheung
Originally posted by AdrianUK
[B]Hi All
I just read an Article by Hawkins Cheung on his website about a more advanced level of Wing Chun where you are softer and don’t rely on structure so much, this sounds a little like the WT way of doing things, is this common to other WC lineages, I have only ever seen every one else go the structure route ? Any more information on this would be gratefully received
Regards,
Adrian [/B]
Are you sure that’s right? Sounds backwards to me. In my experience, the softer your Wing Chun becomes (meaning the less muscle and brute strength used), the more important good structure becomes.
Keith
First off let me state I am not a student of Hawkins, but more a friend, so his students would best serve to explain, but when I first met the man after he told me how easily he could just kill me =)
He explained that when your good there is no tan, bong, fook, you only use what’s in between. I didn’t understand it then, many years later and many chi sau opportunities with him, and I understand, he was speaking of transition and adapting, when you fight and try and apply a static shape you are no longer relating, your are crashing and bouncing you are attempting to do your forms against a person, this is the hard way, when you have a high level of sensitivity you mold to the persons energy, your intent seeps through the weakness in his motion or posture, this is much more organic no time or energy to waste on static wedging shapes
This is where someone says ‘be water my friend’, right? 
Ernie, do you mean that for example you try to perform a tan sau, but are obstructed in some way before you can reach the ideal ‘form’ of the tan; you say “OK that’s fine, I won’t force it, I’ll just transition into bong sau (for example)”.
So fighting is not about performing the ideal shapes of WC. They are just ideals and guide us in what techniques we might want to use. From your description, through sensitivity drilled through chi sau (for sake of argument), the opponent shows us how to defeat them (to paraphrase my WC elders).
techniques suck
This is where someone says ‘be water my friend’, right?
---- Very much so, water with intent flowing in and out, crashing in and out
Ernie, do you mean that for example you try to perform a tan sau,
---- I’m picking on your example but I do understand what you are saying, but to play devils advocate — there is no tan to be performed only intent moving toward a goal, to make a tan there would be certain pre requisites, elbow down, wrist, fingers, creating angles, this is a shape unto itself not a concept relating to a person or energy
But are obstructed in some way before you can reach the ideal ‘form’ of the tan; you say “OK that’s fine, I won’t force it, I’ll just transition into bong sau (for example)”.
----- Yes and no, to transition from one attempted static shape to another [though effective] is still not relating, just a mechanical change. When you reach the point of obstruction and your intent of going forward is stalled, if you have sensitivity you feel what is obstructing you, is it going up down to the side is it rigid or soft, the ability to hear this gives you the necessary information to continue on your path, wither I yield, bend, let go, or just go straight through depends on what the person is telling me.
Changing a subtle angle or slight shift in position, or letting the hand go and continuing with the other hand are quieter more efficient alterations then creating a static shape.
In the end there is just a focal point, a curve, or a line, what shape or combined parts of shapes that help transmit the energy is not as relevant
So fighting is not about performing the ideal shapes of WC. They are just ideals and guide us in what techniques we might want to use. From your description, through sensitivity drilled through chi sau (for sake of argument), the opponent shows us how to defeat them (to paraphrase my WC elders).
To quote from that elder, don’t be a slave, use what you need
Now I hate talking techniques, since I don’t think or operate on a technique level anymore, so forgive me for tapping out, if you wish to continue a dialogue on this type of stuff hit me on a email
Ernie,
Obviously you are in a totally different league compared to me, so thanks for offering the dialogue, but I don’t think I’ll waste your time on this occasion.
It is fascinating to read about this, and something to bear in mind as a long term goal. I think I’m only understanding 10% of what you’ve written.
Good post !!
It’s funny how much the word ‘structure’ gets tossed around now. What Cheung sifu refers to as structure is not what most other people use the word for in my experience. ‘Soft’, if possible, has even more variance.
Ernie- When I met Cheung sifu he was telling a 200+lbs WCK guy that at roughly half his weight, he (Cheung) could blast right through him (200lbs guy). Then he showed it. Never seen a guy get Chi Sao’d half way up a wall before.
I think this is part of the reason people can watch an old-timer do something and think there’s no WCK, because they’re looking for the form not the function, or the cliched finger not the moon. When you get to a certain level, the internalization allows you to achieve a lot with a very little.
About Soft
I studied under various teachers. In 1982, I studied under Dr. Khoe who was a private student of Wang Kiu he said to use your muscles only for attack but your structure for defense. He said he hated when people talked about soft in martial arts. He said you cannot just be soft. Instead he liked the word INTERNAL to describe what he did.
Then I have met another teacher who didn’t like the word internal because it could be taken the wrong way as internal energy that he said he didn’t rely on or possess as far as he knew. Instead he said it was just good body mechanics.
In fact William C.C. Chen the Tai Chi master who learned from Cheng Man Ching, also told me the same thing. He was also a believer of highly refined body mechanics and didn’t attribute anything to Chi power. His feeling was very soft but he hit like a truck yet he did have structure in his movements.
What Dr. Khoe saw was that many students were using too much muscle to hold back forces, to push forces away. He himself was very supple and relaxed at all times and the only time you felt something diferent was when you got hit. Yet he always used the positions from the forms. You could clearly see Tan sau, Bong sau, Fook sau, Jut sau etc.
I asked Dr. Khoe if his teacher Wang Kiu was that relaxed. He said where do you think I got it from? So his answer was yes. Then I met Wang Kiu and he told stories of Lok Yiu being very very soft but was able to hit very powerfully. He said you could see Lok Yiu’s movements coming but couldn’t stop them. He didn’t know much about Leung Sheung. Wang Kiu said the early generation mostly all had this very relaxed feeling. He said Yip Man taught that to all and that it wasn’t the case that as he got older that he got to teaching a softer approach to Wing Chun.
In the early 1990’s I met Kenneth Chung and had the chance to play with him for an hour. I expected that as long as he had some structure then I could apply Pak sau, Bill sau or whatever and do something. However at that time he offered me nothing that I could work with. He was very relaxed as if he had no bones and he was very rooted and hit powerfully. My success rate was zero whereas with anyone else I had met before then I always had some success. Kenneth Chun used structure but it was not a rigid structure. It was like an illusion of structure. As soon as you touched that structure it wouldn’t exist anymore and would change to something else.
One of our female students had the opportunity to Chi sau with Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong. On his video tape he looks very snappy, forceful and quite structured. But this student said in Chi sau with her, he was very relaxed, very sticky very sensitive and very good. She had felt many kinds of Wing Chun before that.
I think a good athlete of any kind or a good musician of any kind eventually is able to perform from a very relaxed state. From this state they can flow, they can be hard, they can be soft , they can be anything inbetween.
Soft sometimes has the connotation of just being limp. But just being limp doesn’t work. In a limp state the body parts are not connected and don’t work together very well. Being too rigid is also not a good thing. I have met various Wing Chun students who work with very rigid structures and attained a fair level of skill. However I think this approach is more limiting and more tiring than the relaxed approach.
Some good people in martial arts don’t seem to have any form or they have such a large variety of forms that there seems to be no form. But if you would take a stop action snapshot of their action, then you would see what looks like form. In action there is only attack and change.
On the relaxed approach, I once met a student of Lok Yiu who used to teach for Lok Yu in Hong Kong. His name was Winston Wan. At the time I was pretty relaxed and had no problems handling all kinds of people. However he picked me apart like a true chess master would pick apart a novice chess player. His comment to me was to practice in a little more firm structured way for six months in order to establish the proper connections between my body parts. He said soft is good but unless you have the sensitivity and skill to back it up, it’s also a good way to get yourself killed.
One more thing about soft. In the 1970’s, I studied Tai Chi under master Raymond Chung his students were very very soft in their feeling. They were difficult to attack because there was nothing there. Nothing was presented to attack. But the master himself didn’t feel soft at all. Yet when I pushed the master from any angle, in any direction there was always no resisitance. My pushed always went somewhere and I could not find something to lock onto. So he was sort of like pushing a bicyle wheel. The wheel itself is not a soft object at all yet when you push on the wheel, it merely rotates and thus neutralizes the force.
[[Ernie,
Obviously you are in a totally different league compared to me, so thanks for offering the dialogue, but I don’t think I’ll waste your time on this occasion.
It is fascinating to read about this, and something to bear in mind as a long term goal. I think I’m only understanding 10% of what you’ve written.
]]
Good post !!]]
— no one is ahead of any other we are all heading to the same place , just happen to be on different points on the journey
rene
Ernie- When I met Cheung sifu he was telling a 200+lbs WCK guy that at roughly half his weight, he (Cheung) could blast right through him (200lbs guy). Then he showed it. Never seen a guy get Chi Sao’d half way up a wall before.
ha ha man i have been that 200 pound guy , and i have even sparred with him gloves and no gloves he was even better then his chi sau , i have alot of respect for that crafty old man 
and i know i am blessed to have him and gary dropping gems on me , credit were credit is do
ray,
problem with the soft teaching is a high level guy will seem very soft and yes hit like a truck , but he got there through the hard door , to be soft you must understand hard , this way you know yourself and how to evolve past your own tension and ‘’ hear ‘’ it in others .
students of soft people try and emulate the soft and just get mushy , never really get the snap in there energy that connects the structure tranmission to the ground and the mind ,
they become good at , letting power pass through them but seem to lack issueing power .
so even the soft must be hard and the hard must learn to be soft
being able to swim in both pools , you can get the benifits of both
when you fight and try and apply a static shape you are no longer relating,
Bizarre thing to say!..Statics “shapes” are not something I know of in Wing Chun. IMO, Tan bong and fook and all the variants are motions,They are made of the whole process of doing them,not just the final “shape” of them.
Bizarre thing to say!..Statics “shapes” are not something I know of in Wing Chun. IMO,
now your the special one
Originally posted by Ernie
[B][[Ernie,
ray,
problem with the soft teaching is a high level guy will seem very soft and yes hit like a truck , but he got there through the hard door , to be soft you must understand hard , this way you know yourself and how to evolve past your own tension and ‘’ hear ‘’ it in others .
students of soft people try and emulate the soft and just get mushy , never really get the snap in there energy that connects the structure tranmission to the ground and the mind ,
they become good at , letting power pass through them but seem to lack issueing power .
so even the soft must be hard and the hard must learn to be soft
being able to swim in both pools , you can get the benifits of both [/B]
That’s one of those debatable issues. Kenneth Chung thinks the soft way from the start like in Tai Chi might also work however himself went through the rough and tough method first. That’s not to say he wasn’t taught to relax and be soft from the start but he was the typical Wing Chun teenager in Hong Kong who found the harder style worked. I think going the hard way first gets the fear of the hard stylists out and then it’s easier to be relaxed. Kenneth Chung said the only problem with the hard is that some people have a very difficult time to lose that. But then 99% of the Tai Chi people who profess the soft way, are never able to use their art. The ones that can often have a hard style background in Karate, Judo or Kung Fu. So I agree with you.
Re: About Soft
Originally posted by YongChun
One of our female students had the opportunity to Chi sau with Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong. On his video tape he looks very snappy, forceful and quite structured. But this student said in Chi sau with her, he was very relaxed, very sticky very sensitive and very good. She had felt many kinds of Wing Chun before that.
I was asking my teacher the other day what WSL felt like to Chi Sau with. He said that he was very relaxed- to the point that it felt like there was nothing there. Someone who didnt know better might think they could rush through and hit him but as soon as they would try (as one of my classmates did) his elbow would ‘scoop’ in and his strike would knock them (literally in this case) across the floor.
He (WSL) did also say, though, when he came to England and saw a lot of the chi sau being done by other lineages (who shall remain nameless) that a good karate or Muai Thai Guy would just go straight through them because of their lack of structure and their lack of forward pressure (lat sau Jik Chung).
Ray,
Probably best to break it down to attack and defense,
If a person has intent and is attacking to do damage [hard way in early stages] the signals are loud and reactions huge yet easy to follow, this person gets to express himself, feel his balance or lack of when trying to go all out
On the defensive side, no need to give to much [softer] let the other guy do all the works, let him scream with his power stay calm and find his weakness it will be there
To expose both concepts early on might give the students reference points to judge and be honest with there power and ability to generate and dissipate.
If every one is going hard then no one is listening every one is yelling, talking over each other.
If every one is going soft then there is not real honest energy to listen to, neither guy wants to give to much since it will be used against him, this might take an eternity and when some one really puts it on you might cause your nervous system to stall.
Even now in my training, I have been told to just let them blast away with all the got and I have to flow from position to position never hitting back just to spend time listening while some one is really honestly trying to take my head off
Kind of sucks doing all defense, shots are bound to get in ‘’ ouch ‘’ ha ha
Later you can play with both combined inside of each action, even in our chi sau we have a hard and soft hand on at all times, one questions one listens and they will alternate depending on the read.
But this is just chi sau no big deal
Hi Ernie,
Originally posted by Ernie
students of soft people try and emulate the soft and just get mushy , never really get the snap in there energy that connects the structure tranmission to the ground and the mind ,
they become good at , letting power pass through them but seem to lack issueing power .
Agreed with what you said, but I’d like to point out that it works both ways. There are students that start out hard and never learns how to become soft. I’m sure you know of few of them.
I believe you definitely need both, and it’s not that one is better than the other. I don’t think being hard or being soft is neccessarily the key. I think the key lies in the ability to transition between hard and soft in the proper time and place.
The reason we hear so many people talk about being soft, I think, is because being hard is easy. We don’t need to talk about being hard because we all know how to be hard. And because we don’t talk about it as often, “being soft” gets talked about more dispproportionately, and that can lead people to get the impression that soft is supposed to be better than hard.
Just some rambling thoughts.
Regards,
Alan
Originally posted by Ernie
He explained that when your good there is no tan, bong, fook, you only use what’s in between. I didn’t understand it then, many years later and many chi sau opportunities with him, and I understand, he was speaking of transition and adapting, when you fight and try and apply a static shape you are no longer relating, your are crashing and bouncing you are attempting to do your forms against a person, this is the hard way, when you have a high level of sensitivity you mold to the persons energy, your intent seeps through the weakness in his motion or posture, this is much more organic no time or energy to waste on static wedging shapes
Ernie,
So much said in so few words. Wow!! Kudos my friend.
Bill
I think ‘soft’ might be someting of a misnomer
I prefer ‘free’- this has the connotation of flowing i.e. transitioning/changing swiftly and without hesitation from one attack or action to another.
As my teacher likes to say ’ In wing chun its not about how fast you can attack, its about how fast you can change from one attack to another ’
Agreed with what you said, but I’d like to point out that it works both ways. There are students that start out hard and never learns how to become soft. I’m sure you know of few of them.
hell yes , spent 2 hours working with a few of them last night
teaching some to be soft when hard has worked well for them is not easy ,
you have to prove it to them by shutting them down , and of course they turn it up and try harder and faster
shut em down again and after there sitting there covered in sweat and shaking with a bloody lip , the start to listen
i guess that’s why they call it the school of hard knocks
p.s. alan i’m planning a little frisco run this summer
I think ‘soft’ might be someting of a misnomer
I prefer ‘free’- this has the connotation of flowing i.e. transitioning/changing swiftly and without hesitation from one attack or action to another.
As my teacher likes to say ’ In wing chun its not about how fast you can attack, its about how fast you can change from one attack to another
nick i see it a bit different speed kills for sure , if it’s intiation or transition speed
but the ability to be slow in the face of speed is were the freedom is , timing pure clear smooth timing
Originally posted by Matrix
[B]Ernie,
So much said in so few words. Wow!! Kudos my friend.
Bill [/B]
Wish i could take credit , but at least i learned the lesson and pass it on when ever i can [ it’s how we give back 
]