A well made wck history video from china

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=KPM;1266717]Interesting! So the implication is that Leung Lan Kwai was likely the guy that was responsible for teaching the “Red Boat” version of Wing Chun as we have come to know it through Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Pin Sun, and Yik Kam lineages? “Ng Mui” was a codename for him, implying that he was the one that “formulated” or “developed” Wing Chun? So any stories prior to LLK is the stuff of myths and legends? Would Leung Lan Kwai have been Leung Jan’s teacher? Or Wong Wah Bo? How is the current theory shaping up?[/QUOTE]

If this story is to be believed then we must take into account other stories…In the tradition of Tibetan White Crane there is a monk that is known as Jinbo Liu Tou, he was also known as Wu Mei and was the teacher of Sheng Long Lao Zong. In Yongchun White Crane Wu Mei is the teacher of Fang Qiniang. So if we believe story #1 it can only be correct to assume that Liang Lan Gui (Leung Lan Kwai) was in fact the monk Jinbo Liu Tou in story #2 and the teacher in story #3.

How does this fit in with Emei Shier Zhuang? The only snake referenced in Tibetan White Crane is in the Bai He Gong (White Crane Skills) method, which is based on Tummo and Kundalini Yoga. In some branches of Yongchun White Crane the story tells of a fight between a snake and crane, but no mention of a Snake Gong Method. Wouldn’t it make sense that if Liang Lan Gui was Wu Mei that Emei Shier Zhuang “Technology” be present in Tibetan White Crane or Yongchun White Crane? Or is it more likely that this is just a story? If the story is true, it can only be safe to assume that Emei Shier Zhuang is not the method used to “Engine” Wing Chun but instead Indian Kundalini Yoga concepts and Tibetan Tummo concepts if from Tibetan White Crane or Sanzhan method if from Yongchun White Crane. The timelines don’t add up for Yongchun White Crane. They do for Tibetan White Crane though. Form your own opinion. Were there several “Wu Mei’s”? Was “Wu Mei” a military title/rank? Are the dates wrong? Was “Wu Mei” a man or woman? etc…

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1266737]If this story is to be believed then we must take into account another story…In the tradition of Tibetan White Crane there is a monk that is known as Jinbo Liu Tou, he was also known as Wu Mei and was the teacher of Sheng Long Lao Zong and Fang Qiniang. So if we believe story #1 it can only be correct to assume that Liang Lan Gui (Leung Lan Kwai) was in fact the monk Jinbo Liu Tou in story #2.

How does this fit in with Ermei Shier Zhuang? The only snake referenced in Tibetan White Crane is in the Bai He Gong (White Crane Skills) method, which is based on Tummo and Kundalini Yoga. Wouldn’t it make sense that if Liang Lan Gui was Wu Mei that Ermei Shier Zhuang “Technology” be present in Tibetan White Crane? Or is it more likely that this is just a story? If the story is true, it can only be safe to assume that Ermei Shier Zhuang is not the method used to “Engine” Wing Chun.[/QUOTE]

You love to compare different noodle photos and reason isn’t it?

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I’ve really enjoyed reading and watching people talk about mid 19th century China. Am I correct in saying that those rising up against the Qing were from poorer backgrounds?

1848 in particular is know as the year of revolutions and any student of European history (Karl Marx in particular) will see a lot of parallels and relationships with what happened in China over that period as well as in the south American continent too. I think the links are stronger given some of the masonic symbology I’ve seen from that period in China and the role of Christianity, in terms of ideology and motivating beliefs. It is such a shame that European academia has not traditionally included China when teaching undergraduates about the revolutionary period of the mid 19th century. Personally, I see another period of such global upheaval being on the cards in my own lifetime.

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[QUOTE=Paddington;1266752]I’ve really enjoyed reading and watching people talk about mid 19th century China. Am I correct in saying that those rising up against the Qing were from poorer backgrounds?

1848 in particular is know as the year of revolutions and any student of European history (Karl Marx in particular) will see a lot of parallels and relationships with what happened in China over that period as well as in the south American continent too. I think the links are stronger given some of the masonic symbology I’ve seen from that period in China and the role of Christianity, in terms of ideology and motivating beliefs. It is such a shame that European academia has not traditionally included China when teaching undergraduates about the revolutionary period of the mid 19th century. Personally, I see another period of such global upheaval being on the cards in my own lifetime.[/QUOTE]

Sure, Poverty is a big factor.

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So if we believe story #1 it can only be correct to assume that Liang Lan Gui (Leung Lan Kwai) was in fact the monk Jinbo Liu Tou in story #2 and the teacher in story #3.

Not necessarily. If Ng Mui was a popular fictional character, then it was also likely a popular codename used amongst different groups.

How does this fit in with Emei Shier Zhuang?

That’s a good question! And I don’t know anything about Tibetan White Crane. A Kundalini Yoga link sounds very interesting though!

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[QUOTE=KPM;1266793] So if we believe story #1 it can only be correct to assume that Liang Lan Gui (Leung Lan Kwai) was in fact the monk Jinbo Liu Tou in story #2 and the teacher in story #3.

Not necessarily. If Ng Mui was a popular fictional character, then it was also likely a popular codename used amongst different groups.

How does this fit in with Emei Shier Zhuang?

That’s a good question! And I don’t know anything about Tibetan White Crane. A Kundalini Yoga link sounds very interesting though![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=KPM;1266793] So if we believe story #1 it can only be correct to assume that Liang Lan Gui (Leung Lan Kwai) was in fact the monk Jinbo Liu Tou in story #2 and the teacher in story #3.

Not necessarily. If Ng Mui was a popular fictional character, then it was also likely a popular codename used amongst different groups.

How does this fit in with Emei Shier Zhuang?

That’s a good question! And I don’t know anything about Tibetan White Crane. A Kundalini Yoga link sounds very interesting though![/QUOTE]

Problem is that the Yongchun Bai He Quan story of Wu Mei teaching Fang Qiniang is nearly identical to the story in Yongchun Quan of Wu Mei teaching Yan Yongchun, just slight variances in names etc. From their timelines we can estimate that their origins are approximately 200 years apart, 1640’s & 1840’s based on popular accounts of their perspective origins. Personally I believe that Yongchun White Crane was developed in the late 1700’s. The reason I say this is that any mention of Wu Mei of any other style puts Wu Mei in this time frame, also this time frame scenario doesn’t leave a gaping hole in any lineage, as Wu Mei would be passing the art on by 1820’s-1830’s. This coincides with the next generation passing a “Wu Mei” art on around 1830’s, and so forth. As far as Wu Mei being a popular “codename” of the era, possibly, but we have to take into account the oral traditions of the involved systems, which are remarkably similar, and if we fit it with my proposed timeline we see that they were operational in the same areas at roughly the same time, suggesting that they were in fact the same art that came from the same individual. It’s interesting to note that Yongchun Bai He Quan, Yongchun Quan and Bei Xizang Lama Bai He Pai Quan claim Wu Mei as an ancestor, that they were all involved in “Rebel” activities and were taught in the same areas at roughly the same time, the same holds true for Tie Qiao San of Hongjia fame and the origins of the Iron Wire set, claiming it came from White Crane. Hongjia legends clearly state that it’s Crane techniques come from Hong Xi Guan’s wife Fang Yongchun, again around the same period of time. Each branches history is shaky before 1840’s so it’s very hard to say. Pan Family Yongchun White Crane is the only one that places it’s creation by the female hero Fang Qiniang in the 1600’s. Tibetan White Crane also has it’s creation in 1600’s. I find that interesting. Personally I think that Tibetan White Crane is the mother and Yongchun Crane & Yongchun Fist are the children. I would tell more on this but it would be a book. In all actuality Liang Lan Gui being described as “Wu Mei” actually wraps things up into a nice package for me as he was also described as having learned the art of Fojia (Fut Gar) and becoming a monk later in life. Fojia is a generic term of the era used to describe Lama.

So if one is to put any stock in my theory. We have to ask ourselves where is the “Snake”? Not out of the realm of possibility that it was added in by Wu Mei’s student, it didn’t have to come from the parent. But then why is is not recorded in any of the Yongchun Bai He Quan (YCBH) material? It is accepted that YCBH is a root of Yong Chun Quan, they have the same story with approximately the same characters in the same era and region, making them in my eyes, most likely the same art originally. So if they were the same art propagated by the same individual why would it be missing from one half? We know originally that YCBH was a method of Sanshi and that the husband is the one who created the forms later in life, using his Huzun Quan as a base, this is Sanzhan material, Tiger not Snake. Basically two methods were taught, first Sanshi, second Taolu. So if “Snake Gong” is present in Yongchun Quan (Wing Chun) then by simple deduction we can safely assume that it was a later addition by at the earliest a 3rd generation practitioner. The earliest that this could have occurred is roughly around 1850. This goes back to my original argument that YKWC is the only line to contain Emei Shier Zhuang material, and it was not an original or integral part of WC’s development collectively as the founder would not have traded one engine (Snake) for another (Tiger). The engine is Crane, always has been, this doesn’t mean it can’t be augmented, as each of these styles that I mentioned are mixed Crane & Monkey, Crane & Tiger, Crane & Fox, Crane & Snake, Two Cranes depending on the lineage. Their is a common theme and that is Crane. You have to ask yourself what is the more likely and logical conclusion Snake or Crane?

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This goes back to my original argument that YKWC is the only line to contain Emei Shier Zhuang material, and it was not an original or integral part of WC’s development collectively as the founder would not have traded one engine (Snake) for another (Tiger).

The above is a speculation.

Fact is,
WCK lineages such as yks, Ipman, kulo …YK…ec has the snake of emei embedded in the SNT set. It is a common denominator of these lineages.

Snake of emei and crane of fujian are all. Nothing else . If the common denominator of SNT is not based on orginal Wck design what is?

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266804]This goes back to my original argument that YKWC is the only line to contain Emei Shier Zhuang material, and it was not an original or integral part of WC’s development collectively as the founder would not have traded one engine (Snake) for another (Tiger).

The above is a speculation.

Fact is,
WCK lineages such as yks, Ipman, kulo …YK…ec has the snake of emei embedded in the SNT set. It is a common denominator of these lineages.

Snake of emei and crane of fujian are all. Nothing else . If the common denominator of SNT is not based on orginal Wck design what is?[/QUOTE]

No you are the one speculating. I’ll speak for YMWC, YCWWC and NCSWC as these are the methods I’ve studied. There is absolutely no reference or documentation of Emei Shier Zhuang in these traditions. The only one that even comes close to a “Snake Gong” reference is the Yuan Chai Wan (Ruan Ji Yun) tradition and he never called it snake style that is what others called it, if anything his line went the way of the 5 Animals.

What you suggest is an insult to every line of Crane that exists, saying OK you’re Crane style but you run on the engine of a snake. As I have stated before, and I will state yet again, this may be true for YKWC but is not for WC collectively, despite whatever famous individuals agree with you. There is no evidence outside of Cho Family documentation!!! Have you ever studied Snake style? I have studied Southern Snake and the link to WC is not overly apparent outside of a few hand position, funny thing is these same hand positions are found in Crane. I’ve already pointed out that if we are to believe the legends, “Snake Gong” could not have entered WC until third generation. I’m not saying it’s not the “Engine” for YKWC, but it is not the “Engine” for my branch(s), our legends clearly state where we came from. As more and more information is uncovered I see nothing that refutes the original claims found within the legends. Everything that you have uncovered only leads back to Cho Family, nothing earlier or to anyone else. As far as Kuen Kuit, the comparison to Emei Shier Zhuang is very interpretative. I could just as easily compare the Kuen Kuit to that of Taijiquan and make claims that the now extinct Southern School of Taijiquan evolved into Wing Chun and that Zhang San Feng was the founder! It’s all interpretive, biased and directed to fit into a history that agrees with your ideology only. You may speak for Cho Family WC but you will not speak for me or my line. I do not care what you say Rene Ritchie, Sergio Iderola, Jim Roselando or Robert Chu think. I will form my own opinion based on the evidence presented and research that I’ve done. My Wing Chun isn’t broken, quit suggesting that it is. As I stated before if you think that Ermei Shier Zhuang is the root and power source of WC, fantastic, just remember it only applies to Cho Family. Now I have a question I think you need to ask yourself. If Emei Shier Zhuang is be all end all “Holy Grail” of WC mechanics and theory, why don’t you just give up WC altogether and Bei Shi to Fu Wei Zhong?

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1266809]No you are the one speculating. I’ll speak for YMWC, YCWWC and NCSWC as these are the methods I’ve studied. There is absolutely no reference or documentation of Emei Shier Zhuang in these traditions. The only one that even comes close to a “Snake Gong” reference is the Yuan Chai Wan (Ruan Ji Yun) tradition and he never called it snake style that is what others called it, if anything his line went the way of the 5 Animals.

What you suggest is an insult to every line of Crane that exists, saying OK you’re Crane style but you run on the engine of a snake. As I have stated before, and I will state yet again, this may be true for YKWC but is not for WC collectively, despite whatever famous individuals agree with you. There is no evidence outside of Cho Family documentation!!! Have you ever studied Snake style? I have studied Southern Snake and the link to WC is not overly apparent outside of a few hand position, funny thing is these same hand positions are found in Crane. I’ve already pointed out that if we are to believe the legends, “Snake Gong” could not have entered WC until third generation. I’m not saying it’s not the “Engine” for YKWC, but it is not the “Engine” for my branch(s), our legends clearly state where we came from. As more and more information is uncovered I see nothing that refutes the original claims found within the legends. Everything that you have uncovered only leads back to Cho Family, nothing earlier or to anyone else. As far as Kuen Kuit, the comparison to Emei Shier Zhuang is very interpretative. I could just as easily compare the Kuen Kuit to that of Taijiquan and make claims that the now extinct Southern School of Taijiquan evolved into Wing Chun and that Zhang San Feng was the founder! It’s all interpretive, biased and directed to fit into a history that agrees with your ideology only. You may speak for Cho Family WC but you will not speak for me or my line. I do not care what you say Rene Ritchie, Sergio Iderola, Jim Roselando or Robert Chu think. I will form my own opinion based on the evidence presented and research that I’ve done. My Wing Chun isn’t broken, quit suggesting that it is. As I stated before if you think that Ermei Shier Zhuang is the root and power source of WC, fantastic, just remember it only applies to Cho Family. Now I have a question I think you need to ask yourself. If Emei Shier Zhuang is be all end all “Holy Grail” of WC mechanics and theory, why don’t you just give up WC altogether and Bei Shi to Fu Wei Zhong?[/QUOTE]

  1. No you don’t speak for lineages, you only speak for yourself.

  2. From YM lineage , to yks, to yk to kulo, all has share common denominator of snake from emei.
    Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art.

  3. How is it an insult since legend of older Wck always point out it is a snake and crane art?

  4. No one talk about holly grail, none, not me. It is just facts presented.

  5. A simple thing, not complicated at all. Why made it so complex?
    SNT = Emei 12 zhuang + Fujian White crane.
    By evidence.

  6. The kuit is inteprative for you because you are trying to compare the taste of Chinese noodle and Italian spegetti by looking at photos , but have never taste both.

  7. You are free to have your opinion, as you like. I present what is found and not expect anyone to buy in.

Btw

we are to believe the legends, “Snake Gong” could not have entered WC until third generation.

This is fortune telling. Also it doesn’t make sense totally. Wck is a short strike art since beginning of time, stick close and short Jin. How is Wck suppose as it is without the snake engine?

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266814]1. No you don’t speak for lineages, you only speak for yourself.

  1. From YM lineage , to yks, to yk to kulo, all has share common denominator of snake from emei.
    Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art.[/QUOTE]

  2. If I don’t how can you?

  3. And there it is from you own mouth: Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art I’ve been saying this all along, it is only found in YKWC, therefore exclusive to YKWC.

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1266815]1. If I don’t how can you?

  1. And there it is from you own mouth: Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art I’ve been saying this all along, it is only found in YKWC, therefore exclusive to YKWC.[/QUOTE]

  2. I Don’t speak for anyone but myself,

I just present facts.

  1. The fact in YKWC document is a fact. Disregard of who present it. Others of me, it doesn’t matter.

  2. The following is late Gm Fung chun practice with emei 12 zhuang signature in it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts&feature=youtube_gdata

Jim Rosalendo who is Gm Fung decendent had confirm with Gm Fu of emei 12 zhuang.

  1. You are free to have your view.
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7 bows=tai chi
robert chu study tai chi
robert chu’s sifu hawkins cheung practice tai chi
add a little qigong
add a little old documents
add a little chinese noodle for pie in the sky attainment
add a little dont answer questions directly, talk like fortune cookie

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266816]1. I Don’t speak for anyone but myself,

I just present facts.

  1. The fact in YKWC document is a fact. Disregard of who present it. Others of me, it doesn’t matter.

  2. The following is late Gm Fung chun practice with emei 12 zhuang signature in it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts&feature=youtube_gdata

Jim Rosalendo who is Gm Fung decendent had confirm with Gm Fu of emei 12 zhuang.

  1. You are free to have your view.[/QUOTE]

  2. You keep trying to speak for me, irregardless I what I tell you, you say I’m wrong and that Emei Shier Zhuang is present in my WC and that if it isn’t it should be. :mad:

  3. It’s a document that supports Cho Family heritage only, it does not speak for or represent any other line.

  4. Those exact same techniques and movements are found in Hongjia. Is Hongjia infused with Emei Shier Zhuang, is it’s the “Engine” of Hongjia?

  5. I don’t care what Jim thinks, if you want to believe something hard enough you will. He is free to think what he wants, but just because him and the rest of the “League of Extraordinary Gentleman” believe it doesn’t mean I have to buy into it.

When I learned WC I learned it all, questions were asked and answered with explanation. Nothing was left out. I don’t want your “Snake Engine” technology, my WC works just fine without it. Quit trying to convince me I’m wrong when you can’t even answer one question I’ve posed. You assume that my WC is incomplete and that I lack understanding because of what the Cho Family ancestors say in a document? Horsesh!t, this is all some big ruse that you and the rest of the “League of Extraordinary Gentleman” are trying to pull off. What a new book coming out? Trying to chum the waters before it’s release? I’m not buying into any of this BULLSH!T! Not one shred of tangible evidence has been put forth that I haven’t already refuted. You want me to fall in line? All you or anyone else has to do is answer my GODD@MN questions and convince me! So far what I’ve laid out on the table has not even been acknowledged let alone responded to. As far as this mysterious Fu Wei Zhong character is concerned, why wouldn’t he claim that Emei Shier Zhuang is the root of WC it’s good publicity for him. You want to settle this matter have him produce a document stating that someone from the Wing Chun line inherited this art. He is the Grand Master after all, and only a few of the 12 posts have been taught to the public since it’s inception. They have a lineage chart don’t they, claiming who is qualified to pass on the material and who they taught it to?

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Believe what you like. I am ok with it.

I don’t deal with believe, I present facts. And you don’t have to take it.

[QUOTE=dlcox;1266827]1. You keep trying to speak for me, irregardless I what I tell you, you say I’m wrong and that Emei Shier Zhuang is present in my WC and that if it isn’t it should be. :mad:

  1. It’s a document that supports Cho Family heritage only, it does not speak for or represent any other line.

  2. Those exact same techniques and movements are found in Hongjia. Is Hongjia infused with Emei Shier Zhuang, is it’s the “Engine” of Hongjia?

  3. I don’t care what Jim thinks, if you want to believe something hard enough you will. He is free to think what he wants, but just because him and the rest of the “League of Extraordinary Gentleman” believe it doesn’t mean I have to buy into it.

When I learned WC I learned it all, questions were asked and answered with explanation. Nothing was left out. I don’t want your “Snake Engine” technology, my WC works just fine without it. Quit trying to convince me I’m wrong when you can’t even answer one question I’ve posed. You assume that my WC is incomplete and that I lack understanding because of what the Cho Family ancestors say in a document? Horsesh!t, this is all some big ruse that you and the rest of the “League of Extraordinary Gentleman” are trying to pull off. What a new book coming out? Trying to chum the waters before it’s release? I’m not buying into any of this BULLSH!T! Not one shred of tangible evidence has been put forth that I haven’t already refuted. You want me to fall in line? All you or anyone else has to do is answer my GODD@MN questions and convince me! So far what I’ve laid out on the table has not even been acknowledged let alone responded to. As far as this mysterious Fu Wei Zhong character is concerned, why wouldn’t he claim that Emei Shier Zhuang is the root of WC it’s good publicity for him. You want to settle this matter have him produce a document stating that someone from the Wing Chun line inherited this art. He is the Grand Master after all, and only a few of the 12 posts have been taught to the public since it’s inception. They have a lineage chart don’t they, claiming who is qualified to pass on the material and who they taught it to?[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1266815]1. If I don’t how can you?

  1. And there it is from you own mouth: Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art I’ve been saying this all along, it is only found in YKWC, therefore exclusive to YKWC.[/QUOTE]

As H.Santo has clarified he speaks for himself not on behalf of Ban Chung Wing Chun as past on by the Cho Family.

I have been learning from the Cho Family inheritors in SEA and Ng Wu, China for 8 years and nobody has acknowledged or heard it been said that there is any connection to Ermei. The only reference I have heard is to Siu Lam hence the old name to represent all old opera / red boat kung fu .. Ban Chung Siu Lam.

I do find it strange that after all these years of so called research and going back to China that H. Santo has never been back to Ng Wu to pay his respects and do research into the family names he uses so freely? I assure you both the Cho and Yik families are still around!

The fact is, as he has stated, he has found his own way and interpretation based on his own research into the other arts he has learnt .

36

[QUOTE=FongSung;1266830]As H.Santo has clarified he speaks for himself not on behalf of Ban Chung Wing Chun as past on by the Cho Family.

I have been learning from the Cho Family inheritors in SEA and Ng Wu, China for 8 years and nobody has acknowledged or heard it been said that there is any connection to Ermei. The only reference I have heard is to Siu Lam hence the old name to represent all old opera / red boat kung fu .. Ban Chung Siu Lam.

I do find it strange that after all these years of so called research and going back to China that H. Santo has never been back to Ng Wu to pay his respects and do research into the family names he uses so freely? I assure you both the Cho and Yik families are still around!

The fact is, as he has stated, he has found his own way and interpretation based on his own research into the other arts he has learnt .[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much for the clarification, much appreciated.

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1266827]1. You keep trying to speak for me, irregardless I what I tell you, you say I’m wrong and that Emei Shier Zhuang is present in my WC and that if it isn’t it should be. :mad:

  1. It’s a document that supports Cho Family heritage only, it does not speak for or represent any other line.

  2. Those exact same techniques and movements are found in Hongjia. Is Hongjia infused with Emei Shier Zhuang, is it’s the “Engine” of Hongjia?

  3. I don’t care what Jim thinks, if you want to believe something hard enough you will. He is free to think what he wants, but just because him and the rest of the “League of Extraordinary Gentleman” believe it doesn’t mean I have to buy into it.

When I learned WC I learned it all, questions were asked and answered with explanation. Nothing was left out. I don’t want your “Snake Engine” technology, my WC works just fine without it. Quit trying to convince me I’m wrong when you can’t even answer one question I’ve posed. You assume that my WC is incomplete and that I lack understanding because of what the Cho Family ancestors say in a document? Horsesh!t, this is all some big ruse that you and the rest of the “League of Extraordinary Gentleman” are trying to pull off. What a new book coming out? Trying to chum the waters before it’s release? I’m not buying into any of this BULLSH!T! Not one shred of tangible evidence has been put forth that I haven’t already refuted. You want me to fall in line? All you or anyone else has to do is answer my GODD@MN questions and convince me! So far what I’ve laid out on the table has not even been acknowledged let alone responded to. As far as this mysterious Fu Wei Zhong character is concerned, why wouldn’t he claim that Emei Shier Zhuang is the root of WC it’s good publicity for him. You want to settle this matter have him produce a document stating that someone from the Wing Chun line inherited this art. He is the Grand Master after all, and only a few of the 12 posts have been taught to the public since it’s inception. They have a lineage chart don’t they, claiming who is qualified to pass on the material and who they taught it to?[/QUOTE]

Uh, no offense Dave. But I think this qualifies as a “heightened emotional state”. :wink:

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[QUOTE=KPM;1266834]Uh, no offense Dave. But I think this qualifies as a “heightened emotional state”. ;)[/QUOTE]

i’m the calmest guy you ever met! hendrik’s avoiding questions is like dealing with a two year old. i feel like homer simpson when he grabs bart by the neck! he answers questions with his snake engine, slithers them away!

39

I don’t know anything about the Emei Snake system. But I have seen some good Southern White Crane. I think there is no doubt that Wing Chun’s ancestor art was White Crane. The founding myth of Wing Chun talks about a combination of Snake and Crane. There is often a kernel of truth in old myths and legends. So to me, it seems logical that Wing Chun diverged from its White Crane roots when Snake aspects were included. When that happened, and the source of that Snake influence is not exactly clear. But given that certain motions that are “snake-like” in a lot of Wing Chun lineages seem to be very similar to the Emei Snake that Hendrik has shown pictures of, it seems logical to me. So until a better explanation comes along, I’m willing to go with this. I don’t know about a “League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”, but I have trained with Jim Roselando and respect his opinion on things. If he has actually spent time with a Emei Sifu and says that he sees lots of commonalities with Wing Chun, then I believe him.

40

[QUOTE=KPM;1266838]I don’t know anything about the Emei Snake system. But I have seen some good Southern White Crane. I think there is no doubt that Wing Chun’s ancestor art was White Crane. The founding myth of Wing Chun talks about a combination of Snake and Crane. There is often a kernel of truth in old myths and legends. So to me, it seems logical that Wing Chun diverged from its White Crane roots when Snake aspects were included. When that happened, and the source of that Snake influence is not exactly clear. But given that certain motions that are “snake-like” in a lot of Wing Chun lineages seem to be very similar to the Emei Snake that Hendrik has shown pictures of, it seems logical to me. So until a better explanation comes along, I’m willing to go with this. I don’t know about a “League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”, but I have trained with Jim Roselando and respect his opinion on things. If he has actually spent time with a Emei Sifu and says that he sees lots of commonalities with Wing Chun, then I believe him.[/QUOTE]

Emei is first there and then the founder fuse with fujian white crane to create SNT.

Trying to avoid emei in SNT is like buying a BMW all wheel drive and trying to get rid of the BMW engine.

Technical speaking, I can understand , many people, including myself, are some times more concern on our face and title then wanting to see what the original face of the a SNT is like.

Jim is having an Emei 12 zhuang seminal with Gm Fu and many wcners in Boston in about two weeks time. Many wcners have tested the evoke of emei engine in thier SNT and they are not turning back.