8th Hung Fa Yi Public Workshop, AZ

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Greetings all, the following outlines the next upcoming HFY seminar in Chandler, AZ:

The main topic for this workshop is the relationship of Chan and Hung Fa Yi wing chun kung fu in terms of time, space, and energy.

Date & Location:
Meng’s Martial Arts of Arizona
3029 N. Alma School Rd. Suite 218
Chandler, AZ 85224

Saturday, 11 October 2003 9:00 AM – 4:00 PM
Sunday, 12 October 2003 10:00 AM – 5:00 PM

$100 for Members and $150 for Non-Members
(prior to)
$125 for Members and $180 for Non-Members
(at the door)

For more information contact:
Meng’s Martial Arts of Arizona
3029 N. Alma School Rd. Suite 218
Chandler, AZ 85224
(480) 820-2428 – phone
(480) 820-0222 – fax
www.mengsofaz.com
sifu@mengsofaz.com

2

added info

Savi,

It may be worth adding that the Workshop will be presented by Sifu Gee. Since it seems that so many people have so many questions about Hung Fa Yi, this represents a great chance to get information directly from him.

I am looking forward to seeing you all out there in sunny Chandler (my plane ticket is all set!). Especially since Rochester in The Fall/Winter months is best when viewed from AZ (maybe that is just my age talking…) Best wishes until then.

ajk

3

Hi!

Since I have been to a HFY seminar led by G.Gee let me toss my two cents in.

The Kiu Sou seminar I attended was informative if not redundant to the point that a large percent of the information offered the first night was also presented the second and third day. I realize that it was a beginners level seminar and may have been planned that way.

To compliment G.Gee and his students at the Ohio school, all were friendly, open and gracious hosts. I expect if you go to the seminar you will meet many dedicated friendly students.

My one criticism is prompted due to Akalish’s comment " It may be worth adding that the Workshop will be presented by Sifu Gee. Since it seems that so many people have so many questions about Hung Fa Yi, this represents a great chance to get information directly from him."

In my experience with G. Gee, Benny, **** and their many students, they would not very from the curriculum when questions were asked.

Many times I would ask a question trying to understand or clarify a point and the response was usually “That is not Kiu Sao.”

While not a major problem, it seemed that the seminar I attended did not gear itself towards people trying to get a broader picture of the art. Nor did it seemed exceptionally well suited for the non-initiated. I did enjoy myself and it was a good exhibition of Kiu Sou but little more was offered, even when requested.

Thanks and good luck with your seminar.

David

4

There is some truth in your fiction and some fiction in your truth…

Originally posted by Mckind13
The Kiu Sou seminar I attended was informative if not redundant to the point that a large percent of the information offered the first night was also presented the second and third day. I realize that it was a beginners level seminar and may have been planned that way. David
Yes, it was most certainly structured for beginners, but also what is most common in all the seminars I have attended is a review of the previous day. It serves as a good refresher for all who start the day off with kung fu.

Originally posted by Mckind13
To compliment G.Gee and his students at the Ohio school, all were friendly, open and gracious hosts. I expect if you go to the seminar you will meet many dedicated friendly students. David
Thanks for the positive feedback here.

Originally posted by Mckind13
[B] My one criticism is prompted due to Akalish’s comment …

In my experience with G. Gee, Benny, **** and their many students, they would not very from the curriculum when questions were asked. David [/B]
Although I do not recall this issue you may have experienced, most often times staying focused on the material at hand would be most appropriate. Also, this may have only been your perception and should not serve as a testimonial for all of the guests who attended.

Originally posted by Mckind13
Many times I would ask a question trying to understand or clarify a point and the response was usually “That is not Kiu Sao.” David
Thinking back, I do remember this from the November seminar you attended at the VTM, and the point you did not mention is that there was a following explanation for those questions. Whether or not you comprehended the explanation I think you should have addressed further at the seminar.

Originally posted by Mckind13
While not a major problem, it seemed that the seminar I attended did not gear itself towards people trying to get a broader picture of the art. Nor did it seemed exceptionally well suited for the non-initiated. I did enjoy myself and it was a good exhibition of Kiu Sou but little more was offered, even when requested. David
In contrast to your response here, I have read many testimonials from the guests of that seminar and there were many new people who loved and learned a lot about the seminar. I can see where you are coming from with your dissatisfaction, yet you have to think about this: Although GM Gee can give you as much information on Kiu Sau as he knows - you may not be ready to understand what he tells you…

I think that your post was excellent, and the feedback is definitely appreciated, but keep in mind for you it was just a “fau Kiu” (first/wandering) level of experience. No one should expect a beginner in anything to understand something to the “T” off the bat. One of the main teaching methods about HFY is this, in a nut shell: “The Mind knows, the Body understands.” This is only part of the balance, but as a “beginner” in a seminar David, frustrations and misunderstandings are natural.

5

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the informative review. Given that we have something in common (we’re both curious about HFY and we’re both non-members), I figure you could help me with a question. Was the seminar strict to the planned schedule or was it more free form? Or both? Did you have an opportunity to experiement (e.g. free style touching hands) or was it strictly limited to drills and whatever was on the curriculum at the time? Or was it both? To what proportion?

Thanks in advance,

Regards,
Alan

6

It is strictly held to a schedule.

In fact once a break is called people seem to evaporate and then reappear after the meal is over.

There is very little hanging about and training.

Or at least I was not invited: P

David

7

staying focused

originally posted by McKind13
To compliment G.Gee and his students at the Ohio school, all were friendly, open and gracious hosts. I expect if you go to the seminar you will meet many dedicated friendly students.

originally posted by McKind13
In my experience with G. Gee, Benny, **** and their many students, they would not very from the curriculum when questions were asked.
Many times I would ask a question trying to understand or clarify a point and the response was usually “That is not Kiu Sao.”
In my experience with G. Gee, Benny, **** and their many students, they would not very from the curriculum when questions were asked.

Firstly, David you need to decide if the HFY family is “open and gracious” or this tightly knit group secretly keeping things close to the vest while pretending to hold public seminars. Presently you sound mixed up confused and off center. Secondly, there is only one person presently holding Public seminars on HFY and veiling your little critisicm of him in front of the name of my Sigung and “many students” isn’t serving your cause any good. If you don’t know who is running the seminar you attend or who to direct your questions to I suggest you reread Andy’s post and stop blaming others for your inablity to take advantage of a golden opportunity. When you attend a seminar on kiu sau expect to learn about kiu sau not chi sau its called staying focused. Lastly, if you consider your post complimentary thanks but no thanks in the future just keep your compliments to yourself. Attending one HFY seminar doesn’t make you an expert on the inner workings of HFY report what you learned and how it applies to your wing chun all the editorializing you can save for the San Diego Tribune.

8

Here we go again!!!

Canglong said:

.. Lastly, if you consider your post complimentary thanks but no thanks in the future just keep your compliments to yourself…

Here we go again… a wonderful discussion is fast turning into personal attacks!!!

Canglong, relax dude!

CHS

9

Hi Tony

Hello Tony.

(Tony) Firstly, David you need to decide if the HFY family is “open and gracious” or this tightly knit group secretly keeping things close to the vest while pretending to hold public seminars. Presently you sound mixed up confused and off center.

(David) You sound angry Tony. I felt everyone was open and nice and very helpful when I needed a ride to the airport. They did not deviate from the Kiu Sou message and that, in my opinion made it a little tough to make an understandable reference to my knowledge of the Yip Man system. I feel I could have gotten a little more out of the seminar if the focus had been a little different. But it was a perty good seminar none the less.

(Tony) Secondly, there is only one person presently holding Public seminars on HFY and veiling your little criticism of him in front of the name of my Sigung and “many students” isn’t serving your cause any good.

(David) Your right Tony. G.Gee gave an outstanding seminar that was very informative and to the point of the topic. I really enjoyed the seminar and his teaching method, different as it may be from my Sifu’s. I will refrain from also trying to pay compliments to your teachers and fellow students for making the experience enjoyable.

(Tony) If you don’t know who is running the seminar you attend or who to direct your questions to I suggest you reread Andy’s post and stop blaming others for your inability to take advantage of a golden opportunity.

(David) I believe Benny and Rich were hosting/running the seminar and G.Gee was presenting. I directed my questions to all three at various points throughout the seminar.

(Tony) When you attend a seminar on kiu sau expect to learn about kiu sau not chi sau its called staying focused.

(David) Thanks again Tony. The seminar was very focused on Kiu Sou. So focused that it left me with many questions as to how it fit into the HFY Chi Sou and Combat methods. Granted I know very little about these but I was trying to ask intelligent questions.

(Tony) Lastly, if you consider your post complimentary thanks but no thanks in the future just keep your compliments to yourself.

(David) I appreciate your input Tony but I cannot abide. I was attempting to give realistic input into my experience regarding the seminar and so I gave good points and bad points. That is what a review is and I would expect the same from you if you came to a seminar hosted by my Sifu or myself.

(Tony) Attending one HFY seminar doesn’t make you an expert on the inner workings of HFY report what you learned and how it applies to your wing chun all the editorializing you can save for the San Diego Tribune.

(David) I would never claim to be an expert in something I am not, nor do I plan on attempting to master HFY any time soon. I will voice my opinion though any time I see fit, much like your training brothers do. Since you know the name of the news paper here in San Diego, does that mean you will visit me soon? Let me know and I will try and find a place for you to stay. With a student or in a cheap hotel. You and all your HFY brothers are always welcome.

10

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the quick response. But I have one more question. Did you get a chance to freely work out with anyone at any point during the seminar? For example, free-form touching hands? I don’t mean sparring, of course. Just the equivilent to our chi sau or gor sau.

Thanks again,
Alan

11

Hi Alan,

What i’m saying is not to be sarcastic or trying to start anything with anyone, but it seems like you are asking questions to the wrong person about the seminar :slight_smile: I mean, if you read in past posts, Mckind13 always had some kinda negative response on the HFY people IMO. You know about the situation with his Sifu Robert Chu and the HFY people? well anyways, :slight_smile: If you are really interested, why don’t you just check it out yourself? Even, and i bet you know, that your group(Ken Chung) already have tention on the interenet with the HFY people.
For example, free-form touching hands? I don’t mean sparring, of course. Just the equivilent to our chi sau or gor sau.
You think it’s going to be friendly chi sau or gor sau? So have you been to Sifu Chan’s school and chi sau with them? my friend told me you guys have some beef with them. Just wondering, since you sound like you want to touch hands with every school. Ohhh yeah in some schools, they consider that a form of challenge, if your from a different lineage. Don’t get offended though becuase that’s what i’m getting outa your response.

Peace Outy

12

Hi Train,

Thanks for the advice. A couple of notes…

What i’m saying is not to be sarcastic or trying to start anything with anyone, but it seems like you are asking questions to the wrong person about the seminar :slight_smile:

Actually, as I noted to McKind13, we have some things in common. 1) we’re both curious about HFY, and 2) we’re not members. So I wanted to get his particular perspective and opinions. I’ve already read many of the seminar reviews provided by HFY members on the vt museum website. While they are detailed and informative, I also wanted the perspective from someone “on the outside.” You know, for balance.

I mean, if you read in past posts, Mckind13 always had some kinda negative response on the HFY people IMO. You know about the situation with his Sifu Robert Chu and the HFY people? well anyways, :slight_smile:

I was not aware of any relations between McKind13 and HFY except that he attended a seminar. And if it’s all the same to you, I’d rather not get into inter-style gossip.

If you are really interested, why don’t you just check it out yourself?

Well, that’s precisely why I’m gathering the info.

Even, and i bet you know, that your group(Ken Chung) already have tention on the interenet with the HFY people.

I don’t think it would be accurate to say our group as a whole has ill relations with HFY. When I visited the HFY kwoon, I felt like I got along with everyone very well. Kathy Jo and Andy also seem to have a very good relationship. And as far as I know, most people from my school don’t even know the vast majority of the good folk at the HFY kwoon. And vice versa. There may be some bad blood between certain individuals, but it would be a pity if we allow that to spoil our community as a whole.

You think it’s going to be friendly chi sau or gor sau?

Why not? I’ve had friendly work-outs with people from Leung Ting’s line, Lo Man Kam’s line, Ho Kam Ming’s, Eddie Chong’s, and even Chris Chan’s. Every single hand I touched was attached to a friendly person with whom I was on good terms with. And I think that most people who have met me can attest to me being an easy going, friendly, and courteuous individual. So given that, why shouldn’t I expect things to be friendly?

So have you been to Sifu Chan’s school and chi sau with them? my friend told me you guys have some beef with them.

Actually, I have. It was a couple years ago and before I was aware of the internet politics. The people I met there were friendly and courteous to me as well. I even got to work out with a guy. And we parted on good terms. Also, not so long ago this year, we had a social gathering of many bay area wing chun groups. I believe two or three people from Chan sifu’s group attended as well. I even worked out with one. Everyone seemed to get along fine.

As to the alleged “beefs,” as I’ve said before, I’m not going to get into that. But I would like ask a rhetorical question. Is it really that there are “beefs” between the bay area wing chun groups, or is it that the “beefs” are with certain individuals?

Just wondering, since you sound like you want to touch hands with every school.

Yeah, pretty much…

Ohhh yeah in some schools, they consider that a form of challenge, if your from a different lineage. Don’t get offended though becuase that’s what i’m getting outa your response.

I’m not offended at all, but thanks Train, for the warning. I’m aware that some schools may take it as a challenge, which is why I make great efforts to not make it appear as a challenge. It’s really not my intention at all to see if my wing chun is better than someone else’s. There will always be someone out there who is better than me. Personally, my goal is to improve my own wing chun, and part of doing that is to experiement with different hands. It’s not whether I “win” or “lose” that is important. It’s that I learn something from the interchange.

Regards,
Alan

13

I’ve gone to a bunch of different seminars on a bunch of different topics from a bunch of different people. They, obviously, vary greatly. Some have been organized to the last detail, run on a stopwatch, and there was no room for any variation or deviation. Others verged on the ill-prepared and utterly disogranized. Personally, I like the model that has a well-defined block of material over the major portion, them some time for q&a, then some time for free application.

You can usually tell in advance what kind of seminar you will be going to, and decide accordingly. If its someone like the VTM, who make organization and structure a priority, on HFY, which seems to be very exacting as well, I don’t think you can go to a seminar expecting anything other than a very tight ship being run.

People are as people are, if you go in knowing what to expect, you will enjoy. If you go in wanting something different (for example, if you ask for a Cirque-de-Soleil-like acrobatics demo from Gee sifu), you will likely be disappointed.

Good luck to all presenting and attending,

14

one experience

“(David) You sound angry Tony.”
David you don’t fully comprehend yourself (your own words say as much) how could you possibly know me.

(David)“They did not deviate from the Kiu Sou message and that, in my opinion made it a little tough to make an understandable reference to my knowledge of the Yip Man system. I feel I could have gotten a little more out of the seminar if the focus had been a little different.”

It’s pretty simple David it was a seminar on HFY Kiu sau not Yip Man, not chi sau and not a private lesson focused on those areas that you need to get “a little more out of”!

(David) “Your right Tony. G.Gee gave an outstanding seminar that was very informative and to the point of the topic. I really enjoyed the seminar and his teaching method, different as it may be from my Sifu’s.”

That was all you really had to say not sure what Rob has to do with it but anyway, you add misleadingly…

(David)“In my experience with G. Gee, Benny, **** and their many students, they would not very from the curriculum when questions were asked.”

Meaning once again you were asking off topic questions about chi sau at a kiu sau seminar, nor is there anything inherently wrong with a strict adherence to the as advertised cirriculum.

(David)"Many times I would ask a question trying to understand or clarify a point and the response was usually “That is not Kiu Sao.”

Here David, I think you are being misleading on a public forum because what you neglect to say is that when a HFY member is discussing kiu sau and a non hfy member brings up chi sau it will most often times sound as if the non HFY person doesn’t grasp the concept of kiu sau and is mistaking chi sau for kiu sua to which the normal response would most certainly be “that is not kiu sau it’s chi sau and we are discussing a kiu sau time frame.” This is not a slant on you by any means because I doubt that many people could fully grasp all the complexities of HFY kiu sau in one weekend seminar.

(David)"The seminar was very focused on Kiu Sou. So focused that it left me with many questions as to how it fit into the HFY Chi Sou and Combat methods. Granted I know very little about these but I was trying to ask intelligent questions. "

For future reference the intelligent thing to do would be to remain focused on the topic at hand. No one said your questions weren’t intelligent just that they were off topic. Don’t go to a lemonade stand and ask questions regarding orange juice then try and paint the lemonade stand owner as anything other than a lemonade stand owner.

(David)"I was attempting to give realistic input into my experience regarding the seminar and so I gave good points and bad points. That is what a review is and I would expect the same from you if you came to a seminar hosted by my Sifu or myself. "

Had someone asked for a non HFY member to post a review I could understand your overwhelming need to post a review but as it stands you posted before the question was asked. Trying to share an experience is like trying find a word that rhymes with orange it’s pointless. That experience was that experience this experience will be this experience and it will be new and exciting to each and all as it happens in that moment. Partake and enjoy for after the moment is gone you will never see it again.

(David)“Since you know the name of the news paper here in San Diego, does that mean you will visit me soon? Let me know and I will try and find a place for you to stay. With a student or in a cheap hotel. You and all your HFY brothers are always welcome.”

David does this mean you won’t be coming to critique the Arizona seminar. You and Rob are always welcome to visit our kwoon as well and forget a cheap hotel I am sure my fine brothers and sisters that you speak so highly of would never allow that. Different lineages means nothing but a removed cousin to HFY members we are all family and family always provides for one another.

Missing a HFY seminar is like reading a book with the last chapter missing, no one wants to do that.

15

Tony, while I am sure I could use many eloquent words to describe the callow nature of your post I will stay with my initial assertion that you seem angry. If the depth of understanding and comprehension still requires us to bicker, lets take it off line.

(Tony) It’s pretty simple David it was a seminar on HFY Kiu sau not Yip Man, not chi sau and not a private lesson focused on those areas that you need to get “a little more out of”!

(David) You have a knack for the obvious Tony. What I meant to say then was it was not presented in a manner that was clear to someone with a Yip Man background and since it was a public seminar I had hoped for more.

(Tony) Here David, I think you are being misleading on a public forum because what you neglect to say is that when a HFY member is discussing kiu sau and a non hfy member brings up chi sau it will most often times sound as if the non HFY person doesn’t grasp the concept of kiu sau and is mistaking chi sau for kiu sua to which the normal response would most certainly be “that is not kiu sau it’s chi sau and we are discussing a kiu sau time frame.” This is not a slant on you by any means because I doubt that many people could fully grasp all the complexities of HFY kiu sau in one weekend seminar.

(David) Again Tony right on. But since the boundaries of Kiu Sou, Chi Sou and combat ranges were not clarified and this was a public seminar, I could only ask questions as I understood the material being presented.

(Tony) Had someone asked for a non HFY member to post a review I could understand your overwhelming need to post a review but as it stands you posted before the question was asked.

(David) PUBLIC FORUM!!!

(Tony) Trying to share an experience is like trying find a word that rhymes with orange it’s pointless.

(David) Are you saying that no one should share their experiences on this forum or only HFY people can properly express HFY? BTW, I have a word that rhymes with orange and if the device it is the namesake of gets patented then that rhyming word may be on its way into the Oxford-English Dictionary!

(Tony) That experience was that experience this experience will be this experience and it will be new and exciting to each and all as it happens in that moment. Partake and enjoy for after the moment is gone you will never see it again.

(David) Glad to hear it.

(Tony) David does this mean you won’t be coming to critique the Arizona seminar.

(David) Sorry Tony, I will not be making this one. Have fun I am sure it will be good. I would defiantly suggest that those that can afford the cost of the seminar to take it. It is always beneficial to train with other people.

Cheers
David

16

Originally posted by Train

What i’m saying is not to be sarcastic or trying to start anything with anyone, but it seems like you are asking questions to the wrong person about the seminar I mean, if you read in past posts, Mckind13 always had some kinda negative response on the HFY people IMO. You know about the situation with his Sifu Robert Chu and the HFY people? well anyways, If you are really interested, why don’t you just check it out yourself? Even, and i bet you know, that your group(Ken Chung) already have tention on the interenet with the HFY people.

Hi Train,

You made a good point. I must say you played fair and square!

17

atro

David,
You are more than welcome to send me a private message any time you so desire.

(David) “Again Tony right on. But since the boundaries of Kiu Sou, Chi Sou and combat ranges were not clarified and this was a public seminar, I could only ask questions as I understood the material being presented.”

The actual range for kiu sau is by the very nature of its position on the arm defining the range and time frame of combat. Kiu sau is a bridge of the forearm and chi sau is a bridge of the striking point (wrist) this is one of the first things discussed at the seminar to illustrate the difference between kiu sau and chi sau. We even did a little drilling to point this out. These things may not be as fresh in your mind since the seminar was a year ago but I have continued to drill them where you may not have.

(David) "What I meant to say then was it was not presented in a manner that was clear to someone with a Yip Man background and since it was a public seminar I had hoped for more. "

When you mean one thing and say another it will tend to lend itself to some confusion. This next seminar topic of Cha’n and Hung Fa Yi taking place at our kwoon in Az is October 11th and 12th no need to hope for more when all you have to do is receive more when offered to you.

When a HFY seminar is on the horizon how could anyone be anything other than felicitous.

Peace,

18

Train,

Your post is an indication of just how far some WCK people have failed to evolve. Luckily, many aren’t like that, including those in the VTM in my experience.

People who are confident in themselves and their abilities do not generally cause any problems.

Roll happy and safe.

19

HFY Outreach Efforts

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Also, not so long ago this year, we had a social gathering of many bay area wing chun groups. I believe two or three people from Chan sifu’s group attended as well. I even worked out with one. Everyone seemed to get along fine.

FWIW, yes, three of Chris’ skilled and friendly students came and enjoyed the day in April which had been preceded by months of build-up here on KFO.

The ego free event (well, we axed 10 bucks to cover food and beverages), which someone else suggested and I organized, was actually inspired as a way to let the HFY contingent show themselves as part of Wing Chun society since so many had never heard of them or seen them.

Too bad that while 50 folks from all over and more than ten lineages came to participate, no HFY parties came. No-show Roger Rollinghand was specifically invited as was Hendrik Santo who came and showed us what a remarkable individual he is. Attendees included folks from all over California and as far away as New York and Boston, not to mention AZ represented by the forum’s esteemed senior member, Joy Chaudhuri.

How the HFY contingent can imagine they have any credibility and continue to post after missing such a convenient and open opportunity to show their stuff and debate theory bemuses me.

Regards,

20

don’t speak to soon!

You really should read your own post and think them through.

<Snip> How the HFY contingent can imagine they have any credibility and continue to post after missing such a convenient and open opportunity to show their stuff and debate theory bemuses me.

You somehow feel that HFY members owe you something or are seeking your approval? Are you implying that if a lineage did not show up to your event they do not gain “credibility”? in your eyes? does this seem a bit arrogant to you? LOL! Have you contacted anyone to find out why there was not HFY members present? If I recall there was an event aready schedualed but I’m sure you think the world revolved around your gathering!
Please before you go on any further you really should take a step back and look at how you sound before you make such statements. The HFY family has nothing to prove we present our information and feel delighted to help others understand. Anything outside of that does not interest most of us. I can only hope that you find out more and change your (seemingly aready made up) mind on HFY. If not I can only contend that you do not have enough information to make such judgments our HFY’S credibility or other wise. I wish you and yours and others well.

Chango (SGS)