Well, I’ve been doing PTP for almost five months now, and I feel it’s time for a change. While I’ve experienced terrific strength gains, esp. on my Deads, I’ve had almost no size gains (nothing measurable anyway). I’ve always really liked the 20 rep squat program from “Super Squats”, but I haven’t got any access to a squat-rack anymore, so I think I’m going to do a modified PTP inspired 20 rep Deadlift program. It looks like this:
I’ll do this 3X per week. Of course you notice the excessive arm emphasis. This is due to my arms lagging behind the rest of my body quite a bit now. Since I haven’t bothered to isolate them for over two years, I figure it might be useful to try to now. I know bench press and pull-ups would probably make the program more rounded, but I haven’t the gear at this time.
So my current goal is to start at 100 lbs. deadlifts X20 and add five pounds per workout until I’m pulling my current five rep max (320 lbs.) X20. After that, I’ll re-evaluate. Any coments or suggestions? I won’t start this new program until Wed.
Originally posted by Samurai Jack So my current goal is to start at 100 lbs. deadlifts X20 and add five pounds per workout until I’m pulling my current five rep max (320 lbs.) X20. After that, I’ll re-evaluate. Any coments or suggestions? I won’t start this new program until Wed.
No I just think that would be amazing if it worked up to 320 x 20.
Your deadlift max is 5 pounds higher than mine, so I can’t make fun of you.
But I think I weigh less, so I win… kinda
But with DL you don’t really do the eccentric portion, and isn’t the eccentric portion more responsible for size gain than the concentric? What I’m saying is, you might be kinda shooting yourself in the foot having a 20 rep program which is obviously designed for mass but doing it with an exercise that doesn’t really have an eccentric portion.
That being said, I think DL most improved my hamstring development, and I never did more than 5 reps. Or maybe it’s just the fact that I squat very low which brings the hamstrings into play.
I dunno. That’s why I said keep us posted of your progress.
Yeah, I figure two and a half months might be enough, but if it gets to the point that I can’t make my reps, I’ll probably start periodizing with wave cycles or something.
As far as eccentric contractions go, I lower the weight slowly and under control when I Deadlift, is that what you’re refering to? I know you and Pavel don’t agree with lowering the weight slowly on Deads, but the thing is I’ve hurt my back every time I’ve ever just “dropped” the weight as Pavel suggests, so I streer clear of that method now. I will let you know how it goes though, and I figure the routine will stand unless I get any compelling suggestions between now and Wednesday (which, of course you are welcome to make).
Originally posted by Samurai Jack I know you and Pavel don’t agree with lowering the weight slowly on Deads, but the thing is I’ve hurt my back every time I’ve ever just “dropped” the weight as Pavel suggests, so I streer clear of that method now.
I lower it, but not slowly. I don’t drop it from waist height, but I don’t try and hold it up. Maybe 1/3-1/2 effort. Maybe less, dunno. I try to keep the same good form on the way down as up - i.e. arched back especially.
there was once a post from DD i used to have saved but can no longer find that had a full layout for how to convert 20 rep squats to 20 rep deads.
if you’ve ever done 20 rep squats you know how bad they are meant to be both physically and(probably even more so) mentally so if it were me i’d be tryin’ to achieve that target of 320 starting from 150 anything less and you might just miss all the pure misery that this sort of program should offer.
I think you’re starting way too light. You’ll end up with an extremely long cycle. Not only are doing 20 rep programs strenuous to begin with, but the law of dimishing returns would have the exercise losing it’s effectiveness long before you reach your goal.
Most you want is an 8 week cycle. Work from there backwards, if you are doing 2 workouts/week adding 5 lbs/workout, then your starting weight should be 245 lbs (that’s only 75 lbs, but that gives you the lee-way to skip a workout if you need to)
Originally posted by Toby I lower it, but not slowly. I don’t drop it from waist height, but I don’t try and hold it up. Maybe 1/3-1/2 effort. Maybe less, dunno. I try to keep the same good form on the way down as up - i.e. arched back especially.
Yeah, Pavel says you should do a controlled drop, not like literally dropping it. What you’re doing sounds about right, although maybe a little slow.
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
[B]I think you’re starting way too light. You’ll end up with an extremely long cycle. Not only are doing 20 rep programs strenuous to begin with, but the law of dimishing returns would have the exercise losing it’s effectiveness long before you reach your goal.
Most you want is an 8 week cycle. Work from there backwards, if you are doing 2 workouts/week adding 5 lbs/workout, then your starting weight should be 245 lbs (that’s only 75 lbs, but that gives you the lee-way to skip a workout if you need to)
Same with a 20-rep squat workout. [/B]
You could always start at 100 but add 15 or 20lbs per workout for the first week or two.
I think if you’re coming off of 5 months of PTP that 20 reps at even 100 pounds will be hard. If it were me, and my 1RM was 320 like his, there is no FREAKING WAY that I could START at 245 x 20. For reference, when I squated 315 x 1, it was a challenge for me to do 135 x 15 after that. 245 x 20 would be completely out of the question. 245 x 10 would have even been out of the question.
Dunno. It could be a mental thing too. Didn’t you say you got a headache when you tried doing 20 reps? All I know is I’ve done it like this a few times and the reason I did is because this is generally accepted model for doing it. 245 lbs is only 75% of his 5RM. At worst, he could work the cycle in the 10 lbs increments/workout and start at 170 lbs.
The reason these 20 rep cycles work is because of the frequency combined with the small incremental steps. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.
I don’t know, I think the DL is funny like that. I can do 5 reps at 320 but I have doubts I could do 20 reps even at 225. It seems that the resting position for 20 rep deadlifts of holding the bar in your hands while you stand there is even more taxing than standing with the bar on your shoulders like you do in the squat.
That’s pretty interesting considering when my 1RM was around 350, occasionally I’d warm up with 15 reps at 225 lbs. That was just a warm-up too. It was mildly taxing but didn’t effect the rest of my session.
Yeah, my endurance is in the $h@t-hole, so like Iron, I’m going to have to start lighter than I’d normally like to. Perhaps I’ll start at 100, then add 10 or 15 lbs. per workout until I get to 245, then progress up 5 lbs. until I hit my target of 320X20. It’s sort of like what that guy in the article says he did.
I REALLY don’t want to get hurt as I’ve tweaked my lower back several times with Deadlifts and it always catches me by surprise. Plus it takes like two weeks to get back to normal.
And yes Iron, I’d probably do the squats if I had a rack. I did the twenty rep squat program about a year or so ago. I actually didn’t think it was as taxing as doing multiple sets of triples was.
Funny story; I was working out at the YMCA gym in thier squat rack (where most people just do pull-ups) when about mid-way through a twenty rep set this personal trainer guy comes up and watches as I finish out my set. As soon as I’m done he goes, “You should really lower the weight dude, you’re gonna hurt yourself.” Which kinda pi$$ed me off, but whatever.
Next week the same guy comes up to me and says, “Dude, if you can lift that for twenty-reps you should go heavier, otherwise you’re just wasting your time.” Arrgghhh. This time I’ve brought the “Super-Squats” book. I show it to him and tell him to buy a copy.
A month later I see these flyers all over the gym announcing a “New Squat Routine Seminar”, and guess who’s teaching it? I’ve got to stand in line for the racks for the next couple of weeks, and I finally quite going to the “Y”.
