2 questions - arrangement of sets in gym workouts, and partial reps for 'power'

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
1

hey

i have 2 questions, can anyone help me out here?

  1. i try and work opposing/antagonistic muscles on the same day, eg biceps/triceps, pecs/back

what is the best arrangement? do a set of pecs, then a set of back? or maybe 3 sets of bench, 3 sets of lat pulldown, 3 sets of flyes, 3 sets of chinups etc? or do all the pecs then all the backs?

and

  1. i have a friend, who is big, and i saw him benching about 100kg in the gym, but he wasnt going down all the way… i asked him why, he said he was training for power.

anyone know about this?

thanks.

2

I can comment about #2. On #1, I like my little full body program, that i listed on another thread.

Partial reps is a powerlifting technique, it concentrates on the kickout, or last 4 inches or so of the movement. I think it’s mainly a triceps exercise and it’s done for explosive power. This is specific to having power in the bench, though it might help the explosive power for your punches.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

3

#2 Well, usually I see PL’ers doing partials from the bottom to half way up. This sounds like the opposite of what your friend was doing. Beats me. I don’t know that much about PL techniques anyway. However, If you only bring the weight halfway down you can use a lot more weight. Here is an example. I call them “Frat boy squats.” Load up the bar with at least 405lbs, and then unrack it like you’re going to squat. Except, go only 2 inches down and then back up. It’s much easier to handle heavy weight if you don’t go very far.

Note: I’m not saying your friend is doing this, he probably knows his shìt, but who knows.

#1 Do whichever you like. Personally I think I would do all my chest exercises, and then move on to back once I’m completely done with chest.

Iron

4

partials

I can only comment on the partial reps scheme.I know a few people that do half-benches to develop some pretty good punching power,but i don’t really endorse it as a be-all,end-all training method.The heavier weight you use,the better for the most part.In this case though they seem to be working an area you are already stronger in.The hard part of the bench for me is the bottom.If i can move through the bottom range i can lock out most every time.If you want to develop an abundance of power in this range at the expense of close-in power i’m sure it will work though.I can attest to the fact that Mike Parker has a hellacious lead hand due to this type of training,but i stick with the regular powerlifts to develop power through the whole range.If i was going to do anything it would be heavy partials in the hardest section of the movement to make a regular lift easier once developed.And another thing,i wouldn’t do them all the time.Heavy partials work the tendons and ligaments to a much higher degree,but seem to require much more time to heal than from regular lifting.Btw,i am currently benching 345 pounds for singles at 190 pounds of bodyweight doing just normal benches,and my chest is my hardest bodypart to train.I was stuck at 225-250 pounds for a year or so until i changed things to a more powerlifting type approach with a workout from the power guru at muscle media.It has helped tons.

good luck,

-Devildog

5

  1. You are either overtraining or not pushing your sets hard enough as you are doing way too much volume.
    It doesn’t matter the placement of the exercises. You need to mix it around and find what works for you.
    Try this program for 12 weeks:
    Mon 1 Set of 15 deadlifts to failure
    2 Sets of seated Military Press to failure
    Thurs 2 Sets of Bench Press to failure
    2 sets of dumbbell rows (or chin ups) to failure
    Sleep at least 8 hours a night
    Eat like a friggin pig.
    THE MOST IMPORTANT LIFT IS THE DEADLIFT. IT WILL HURT LIKE HELL FOR EVERY REP IF YOU DO IT RIGHT

  2. Don’t do partials unless you want to be a powerlifter. Until you Bench 250 and pull 400, you have no need to.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

6

Waterdragon,

What was that in response to?

Mon 1 Set of 15 deadlifts to failure

“15 deadlifts to failure” doesn’t make sense.

Iron

7

I have a harder time doing squats than deadlifts to be honest.

My squat form is merely okay if i stick to medium weight and do ass-to-the-ground squats (though I know it’s not supposed to be good for my knees). If it gets too heavy or if I get lazy I do the unthinkable and lean forward. Otherwise I’m never sure how far to go down or how wide my feet should be- I know I need a decent coach. My squat’s topped out around 275 for a 1RM of a-t-t-g (ain’t got a spotter, scared to go more). My deadlift’s maxed out at about 365 for a straight legged (done it both with legs locked and straight legs not locked). Thinking about starting another thread for squat advice. :wink:

IronFist
I think he means 15 reps then failure…that or he just really times his failure well. :wink:

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

8

so, doing partial reps builds strength in that particular area?

thanks.

waterdragon, could you please expand on how im not pushing myself hard enough? i work to failure on everything apart from military press (as im still getting used to the form) and i usually have enough enery for more sets, eg this is my program on fridays

(for everything i do roughly 3 sets until failure, which i adjust the weight to to be around 6 to 8 reps)

benchpress (freeweight)
flyes (usually machine)
machine press (and by now, i still have enough energy to make it a good 3 sets)
lat pulldowns wide grip
lat pulldowns close grip
chinups (well, by these im usually too screwed to do more than a couple)

using this program, ive added about 10kg to my bench max over 4 months. should i be aiming for more?

and i dont work any more back/pecs until the next friday.

is this overtraining?

also, while we’re on this topic, why is deadlift such an important lift? thanks.

9

Well, before I get into this…
Understand that I am both a fighter (I don’t like the term Martial artist, go figure) and that I subscribe to the Hard gainer philosophy. Also understand that there are other programs that work. I just feel that a hard gainer program is best for two reasons.

  1. You get more bang for your buck. My workouts never go beyond 20 minutes, usually they last about 15. This gives me more time to work on the fun stuff
  2. I’ve tried other programs, this works the best for me.

In regards to over training. This is how I define failure using the bench press as an example. Push the wait for a good 20-30 seconds without it moving before you quit. Most people find they are actually going about 2 reps short of failure once they try this. This is what I do and cannot even think about doing more than 2 sets without my stomach turning. This is also assuming you are doing two sets on the same weight. I don’t do a warm up with weights but that’s a whole nuther thread and a whole nuther debate.

In regards to deadlifts. Yes, squats generally put more meat on you quicker but here’s why I say deads are the way to go. Again, I’m assuming you are a fighter because you are posting on this board. About 2 days after a good dead workout, I get a line of pain going from my hamstrings, up my back, through my traps and into my forearms. Think about that for a moment. Now, think about the muscle groups you will use in a fight. Especially, if you do any type of grappling. If you can pull 300 for 10 reps, you can basically rip anyone off their root once you get a hold of them.

Understand that your gains will be limited by your grip strength. That’s the secret to the deadlift. The strength you gain is SO DAMN FUNCTIONAL!!! whatever you can pull, you can hang onto. The converse of this is I have my wife doing squats because a women’s upper body strength is disproportionately low compared to a man’s. There’s always a trade off.

Deadlifts to failure means you can’t get another without compromising the structure of your spine. A weak grip doesn’t count. Put the weight down, take a breath or two or three and pull again. Yes, you will figure out your failure point quick. Especially if you underestimate a lot and end up pulling 30 times instead of 15. LOL

In regards to how I structure my workout, think about how much you can bench compared to how much you cam M. Press. Same with deads and dumbbell rows. I get a heavy and light day still using full effort.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

10

Almost forget…

Go for 2 seconds on the positive and 3 on the negative on each rep of each lift.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

11

thanks for the clearup, waterdragon

ill start doing deadlifts. ive always tried to ignore legs, because i dont have very big legs at all. damn, that logic is stupid. but ill start.

failure is pressing the weight 20 seconds or so after? wow. id be **** scared doing that on free weight bench press, but ill try it on machine, until u can clear that up for me.

with regards to your last post, the timing.

this afternoon, i took 20 minutes to ask my schools head of PE about weight training (fast twitch vs slow twitch, strength vs looking big etc). he knows a lot, he used to be on roids, he is HUGE (because of the roids im guessing, lol), and hopefully he knows his stuff :slight_smile:

anyway, i wont go into depth on what he said unless someone is interested, but he did say that lift weights fast for fast twitch and slow for slow twitch.

fast twitch is punching right? are you basing your 2 second figure on experience? maybe thats a compromise for grappling, which i take it your interested in because of your deadlift info?

but anyway, thanks for your last posts.

12

Water Dragon, at first I thought you were smoking crack, but I have to give you props for not doing warmup sets with weights. I gave up warm up sets at the beginning of summer. I still stretch out before a set to warm up, but no light weight sets.

But, I have to disagree with you about one thing.

You said: Go for 2 seconds on the positive and 3 on the negative on each rep of each lift.

That’s good advice, EXCEPT for deadlifts. When DL’ing a bloody ton of weight, lowering the weight slowly will fcuk up your lower back. Personally, I think people should basically drop the weight after a DL, but go down with it (so not just dropping it, but lowering it very fast)). But, to each his own.

Ged,


benchpress (freeweight)
flyes (usually machine)
machine press (and by now, i still have enough energy to make it a good 3 sets)
lat pulldowns wide grip
lat pulldowns close grip
chinups (well, by these im usually too screwed to do more than a couple

Do it in this order:

  1. Bench
  2. Machine Press
  3. Flyes

Machine press and Bench press are more mass and power building exercises than flies, and are therefore more important, and come first.

Unless, do you mean flies with dumbells laying on your back? Or machine like “pec deck” flies? My above advice was for machine flies (like cable cross overs).

But, even if you’re doing the lay on your back dumbell flies, you might want to do them last, as doing machine press you will reach failure because of your triceps, not your pecs, so once your tri’s are shot, go on to flies which use primarily pec muscles since the triceps are not contracting.

Ok, back to the workout. Then,

  1. Lat pulldowns wide grip (do it on a chinnup bar if you can use your own weight)

  2. Lat pulldowns close grip - these work your back, but also highly stress your biceps. You might want to do these one workout, and then

  3. Chinups on alternating workouts. By “chinups” i assume you mean palrms towards you, hands shoulder width apart. These are basically a biceps exercise. You might even want to alternate these with lat pulldowns, but it’s up to you.

Remember, lat pulldowns/wide grip pullups (palms away) will work your lats, but also tire out your biceps a bit as well.

Sorry if parts of this didn’t make sense. I’m falling asleep.

Iron

13

for me…

I begin with a complex movement requiring the majority of my upper body to get the fluids moving. Then I progress gradually to the isolation exercises. I always do one body part from start to finish. However when I am pressed for time I sometimes add a lift using my opposing muscles to “dove-tail.” If you are training for power you need to use the WHOLE range of motion. The specifics on power training vary from sport to sport since many variables can alter results. I won’t go into it unless you want but as a rule of thumb I want to have NO WEAK LINK. By neglecting certain ranges of motion you are creating your own Achilles Heel. Bottom line power = mass * average velocity. Get more mass get more speed = get more power.

“If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary.”

14

Ged, You really should go spend somr time on Cyberpump.com. They have a lot of good info and you can spend at 3 days on that site, never reading the same thing twice.

The slow vs. fast argument is there. I still say slow because you need to figure out what you’re doing when weight training. In my experience, the only thing muscle has to do with speed is it gets in the way. You need to learn to relax to get faster. But research the info and make your own decision.

I’d be careful about anything a roid head or even a big guy says. Some people can gain from lifting a damn pencil. I ain’t one of them. I’m about 6’ 175 lbs which is unimpressive as hell. Of course, if I didn’t lift I’d be about 145 lbs. My gains come hard and I can tell you for a fact that I couldn’t gain on IronFists program. I have to fight hard as hell for my gains and start losing them quick if I lay off for even 3 weeks. That’s just me.

In fact, I’d take everything here with a grain of salt. You MUST really get out there and experiment and do the research. If you talk to people, talk to people with your body type who have made decent gains.

Ironfist, if you don’t advocate going slow on deads, what about the negative? I’ve never had a problem but I always lock my back out keystone style. Of course, my best is 220 for 18 so maybe I’m just not high enough for it to be a problem yet.

Question for you. I’m seriously thinking about adding squats as my thihs are starting to lag. The problem is, I have no access to a rack so I can only squat what I can clear. I lift outside so I can drop the weight after the set. How do you feel about a lighter set of 20 rep squats after a heavy set of 15 rep deads? Is it even worth it? I’m a little worried about the extra strain on my back. I’m also not to sure about my theory which is the deads will fatigue my legs enough to get enough benefit out of the aquats using lighter weights. I’m not worried about intensity (as I consider puking a good day) just results.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

15

pre-exhausting legs with deadlifts

Good points all so far btw.I get deadlifts back on the ground as fast as humanly possible without breaking anything myself.I don’t particularly like to hold onto the weight when it isn’t profitable.In the instance of deadlifts you have one of the few exercises you can do and drop,and i take full advantage:)As for pre-exhausting your legs with deadlifts before you squat…i don’t know about that,let me know how it goes though.I might be afraid the important muscles to prevent injury when squatting(lower back,abs) would be more exhausted than my legs if i tried to go that route.Hell,i’d just alternate squats and deads on my leg day and add back and shoulders to squat day(don’t need them when doing deads).Tom Platz did high reps and seemed to still develop a lot of power,just a bit more on the muscular stamina side of things.OF course i guess that may be what most of us are looking for anyway,a measure of power with enough staying power to outlast your opponent.With the equipment you have maybe you could try squats with a more explosive,plyometric type of action to work on the speed end of the equation.

my opponent is gravity,when i finally win i’m leaving this planet-Bill,my psychotic workout partner that benches 2.4x his bodyweight

-Devildog

16

I might be afraid the important muscles to prevent injury when squatting(lower back,abs) would be more exhausted than my legs if i tried to go that route.
That’s exactly what I’m worried about. Maybe I’ll just ride out this cycle and see where I’m at.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

17

Lift fast for fast twitch and slow for slow twitch??? The roids musta gone to his head as this is incorrect. Lifting fast will work fast twitch muscles for explosive power but it’s just because you are putting more stress on the muscle. If you lift fast then you can’t do as much weight, consequently you are still training fast twitch if you take a conventional rep with higher weight.

Basically fast twitch muscle fibre is worked using maximal stress, so in the 3-12 rep range, slow twitch is worked in the 15+ rep range. Fast twitch muscles are explosive and powerful and are the fibre types that have good growth, slow twitch do not grow much, they are endurance based such as you see on long distance runners. Train fast twitch, basically as long as you don’t lift like a girl and are getting close to maximum stress on your muscles you are training fast twitch.

I don’t know about the work-out previously posted…sure it probably works but I highly doubt that it’s anywhere near what could be accomplished using a more conventional workout. 1 set doesn’t do all that much, especially without a bit of warmup. Warmup allows blood to enter the muscle cells providing oxygen which allows you to lift more weight. I do agree that deadlifts are a great exercise, it works virtually your whole body. I use stiff-legged deadlifts which also provide more emphasis on your hamstrings.

Train intense and watch what you eat and you will have a great physique.

18

Water Dragon, this reply is for you:

your quote
Ironfist, if you don’t advocate going slow on deads, what about the negative? I’ve never had a problem but I always lock my back out keystone style. Of course, my best is 220 for 18 so maybe I’m just not high enough for it to be a problem yet.

Go slow on the positive portion of deadlifts. And I must say, 220 for 18??? What is your reasoning for doing this? Those reps seem a bit high. You said you’re a hardgainer… if you’re lifting for mass, keep the reps below 8 or so, and obviously increase the weight. 18 is too high. Sure, it’s like, you could curl a 20lb dumbell 50 times, but you wouldn’t gain strength or mass from it.

Question for you. I’m seriously thinking about adding squats as my thihs are starting to lag. The problem is, I have no access to a rack so I can only squat what I can clear. I lift outside so I can drop the weight after the set. How do you feel about a lighter set of 20 rep squats after a heavy set of 15 rep deads? Is it even worth it?

Absolutely not. Do NOT squat without a rack. I know other people disagree, but if you’ve ever been stuck under the bar in squats (i have once), unable to get up, you will appreciate the importance of having a rack with safety bars. When it happened to me, I was being stupid and squatting outside the rack. It wasn’t much weight at all, so I was able to just drop it off my back, but that’s not the point. It was dumb and I could have been hurt badly.

Absolutely do not do squats after deads. a) deads will tire out your lower back, and that could cause injury during squats. b) DL’s are a big power movement, and you will be too fatigued to benefit from squats afterwards.

I’m a little worried about the extra strain on my back.

Oops, I just mentioned that :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m also not to sure about my theory which is the deads will fatigue my legs enough to get enough benefit out of the aquats using lighter weights.

I guess I said that too. Bottom line, on a particular workout day, do DL’s OR squats, but not both. And no squatting without a rack.

I’m not worried about intensity (as I consider puking a good day) just results.

Uh, I guess, if you don’t mind losing vital nutrients that have yet to be processed by your stomach. Personally I don’t agree with the “I puked so I had a good workout” philosophy, but like I always say, to each their own. IMO if you train intelligently you can achieve at least the same results without puking.

Good luck. No squatting without a cage. And cut the reps down to 5-8. That’s my opinion.

Iron

19

Iron

OK, no squats.

Convince me on the rep scheme for deads. 1 set of 15 works for me. It’s the same philosophy as 20 rep squats. It has to do with the release of growth hormone due to the extreme exertion.

OK, if I do 2 sets of 8 that gives me a total of 16 reps. If I do 1 set of 15, I get a total of 15 reps. I’m in the beginning of my cycle now (shooting for 250 this time) so I can hold the weight through the whole set. But, in about 6 weeks when I’m back at 215 I wont be able to do that. I’ll start resting between reps looking at the bar with disgust. At that point, I’m basically doing 15 sets of 1 (more or less) so it doesn’t matter.

My question: Am I right in my thinking or no? Why should I change to 2 sets of 8? I know I wont be able to grip for 8 reps straight soon.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

20

Water Dragon,

I don’t have enough time to write you a long reply now, but I will later tonight when I get back.

First just tell me if you’re primary goals from DL is raw strength, or if you are looking for increased muscle size (and less increase in strength). I would assume you’re going for size, from what you say.

I guess if you don’t get to reply by then, I’ll just tell you what I would recommend for both goals.

Iron