Sal, thanks for your reply.
As Northernshaolin said, Ma Kim Fong’s Luohan is a northern style. I only know the first form of the system (my Sifu teachs 4 hand forms and some weapons) and they are very interesting. At first sight it appears to be old fashion, with strong movements, combining hard and soft, and some ma bu movements with some similarity with the southern styles. (I could send you some material as you are studying the subject - write me in private)
As for Frank DeMaría, I remember he talked me about these forms in 1980, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the book by Cai is after 1980.
I agree that all the Lohan (and other) forms done today at Shaolin are basically modern forms, Ching Dynasty or later even.
But, your comment about Tong Bei, well for sure Tong Bei influenced most early martial arts in China, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei were all pervasive for a really long span of time during the development of Chinese martial arts.
They both go way, way back. And, in essence, yes, are a method within the forms. You can make any form into Shuai Jiao if you know how, and
Tong Bei is also Long Fist/Sword play techniques that are build in to the moves of most forms. Really, if you take an empty hand form and do it as a sword form, you are using Tong Bei ideas, which became Long Fist ideas. So, saying Tong Bei is essentially saying Long Fist, and the Long Fist ideas came from Sword play and Tong Bei from way back in Sun Tzu’s time they were mentioning Tong Bei, with Quai Gu Tzu being a teacher of this style way back then.
The 18 Lohan form I am talking about is considered both inside and outside of Shaolin to be amongst its oldest forms (along with Xiao and Da Lohan, and later Xiao and Da Hong Quan). From what year/era/dynasty exactly, who knows? But judging from the moves in the 18 Lohan form I specifically am talking about (which you can’t see since this is just words I am typing),
they are strongly related to the more ancient Chinese martial arts.
All these Lohan styles that you mention are all much newer than the old Shaolin 18 Lohan form I am speaking of. This old 18 Lohan looks nothing like any newer Shoalin Lohan form.
Indeed the newer Ching Dynasty Shaolin forms are very different and
almost all of these newer forms look and act related to each other and to me they are all variations of the same thing.
Well I would love to see these forms, I feel that I have seen them once somewhere on a tape that I have. You have my email address so sure if you would be so kind as to provide me some materials to review, I would be most happy, my friend.
I have a tape of you doing the 18 Lohan Form that I am talking about.
If you just do the form without analyzing the movements, it is just a hard/soft Shaolin form. But if you look at the sequence of movements
deeper you will find that the first row is the Five Elements in the ancient order: Pi, Zuan, Beng, Pau, and Heng.
Also all the moves from the beginning to end are also found in the 10 big shapes and the Small Shapes animal forms of Xin Yi (and later with more changes in technique found in Xing Yi).
I’ve been doing Lohan, Xing Yi, Shuai Jiao, Tong Bei, etc for the last 15 years and when you know all these styles you start realizing when you are doing the forms that you did the moves in that same sequence before in another form.
That’s what sparked all the research.
I have found the moves from this 18 Lohan form embedded in the forms of other styles as well (but done with the jings, body mechanics, etc of that other style). So, this form must have been very important to preserve and
must be very old and must be something that the founders of these forms must have had intimate knowledge of.
I have found the moves buried in the 18 Ancients form of 7 Star Mantis, in the
Ba Ji - Pi Qua form (from Wu Tang school), in a Cha Quan form, and in other styles (Ba Qua, Xin Yi/Xing Yi, etc).
So, something is very important about this form, eh?
I use anthropological research techniques (I have a degree in that) to uncover the signature moves in forms and trace them like pottery designs are traced from region to region, era to era, person to person.
It’s a vast puzzle that has many interconnections.
My research is tying in all these styles as being connected to one another in this order:
Shuai Jiao, Tong Bei, Shaolin 18 Lohan and Xin Yi Bar and Pao Chuoi forms, Tai Tzu Quan/Hong Quan, Fantzi, Yue Fei Jia Quan/Lie Ho Quan, Northern Mantis, Eagle Claw, Chen Tai Ji, Yang Tai Ji, Xin Yi/Xing Yi, Yin Ba Qua and eventually Sun style Ba Qua and Xing Yi.
They all have Shuai Jiao/ Tong Bei as their deep roots, the Shaolin forms as the skeleton that their forms hang on as the main trunk, and then
from Tai Tzu and Fantzi come next as the main branches, and from there come all the seperate branches from this tree: Mantis, Yue Fei, Eagle Claw, Chen and Yang Tai Chi (I’m not worrying about their offshoots), Xin Yi/XingYi, and Ba Qua.
There are moves, at least 50 to 100, that are in common with all these styles, that are not found in styles outside of this tree.
Sun Lu Tang understood this and alluded to this in his books.
(the Wu Dong internal styles I think had some contact with this tree when it was a sapling. Many say that Yang style tai Chi has moves found in the Wu Dong internal styles, but I can find ALL these some moves spoken of
inside the root styles that I have mentioned that Yang Lu Chan easily could have learned either from his Hong Quan background or from Chen tai ji.)
If I could show you all what I am talking about, then you would easily see what I am talking about.
Hmm, topic for an article, it’s big enough to do a book on really.
I can give seminar on this all if anyone wants to come to NJ.
I can’t beleive we’ve got this far and I haven’t plugged the magazine
I must be slipping. It’s been so busy around here.
We ran Shawn Liu’s (Deru) version of Songshan Luohan Shi Ba Shou in our NOV 98 issue. I also did a four-article series on Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan (performed by Shi Guolin) that started in our July Aug 2001 and concluded (quite appropriately) in our Jan Feb 2002 (Shaolin Special).
I learned Xiao Luohan initially from Shi Yanming in a one-day seminar. It didn’t stick really, nor did I continue to work on it, but I had to relearn it to work out that article series. I learned Da Luohan from Shi Decheng in '98 at Shaolin. I’m pretty rusty on that too - there was a movement in the begining that I never resolved and the end pattern is a bit messed up in my mind. Neither form is in rotation as part of my regimen anymore sadly. I enjoyed both forms immensily - nice energy flow and some fine applications - but things fall to the wayside and those two were some of those things.
So, Horatio, this 18 Lohan form, both sides, is out on VCD by the Wah Quan lineage.
Seems that this form came from or to Shaolin by the Yuan Dynasty, around time of MOnk Jue Yuan (who reorganized Shaolin Lohan into Animals system).
I have yet to see correct info about Lohan forms anywhere.
Especially if Shaolin is the source of the data, it appears wrong all the time.
Their books, vcds, etc are all wrong. (pardon any mispellings).
There are in reality only these Shaolin Lohan forms that can still be found.
Shaolin 18 Hands Forms Roads 1 to 9 (Shaolin Shi Ba Shaou)
Shaolin 18 Fist form (Shi Ba Quan)
Small 18 Hands form (Xiao Shi Ba Shaou) (Might be more modern)
Small Lohan (Xiao Lohan Quan)
2nd Road Small Lohan (Er Lu Xiao Lohan Quan)
Large Lohan (Da Lohan)
2nd Route or Refined Lohan (Er Lu Lohan Quan)
(there is also a Lohan Duan Da and a Lao - ancient Lohan forms)
Okay, so that’s about all of them that came out of Shaolin in the last 1,500 years.
The Shaolin Encyclopdia, the Shaolin Da Quan, Volume 2, shows 9 Roads (Da Lu) of a form called 18 Hands of Lohan. Road 9 is the oldest road, it comes to Shaolin from the Wah Quan style, back in the Yuan Dynasty period. It is the one made known in the book by Cai Long Yun, the 24 move, 2 person form and two other Shaolin forms books. So, is it out of sequence?
The Shaolin Encyclopedia Volume 2 also shows a form on page 188, called Shaolin Lohan Quan, but in actuality everywhere else this form is ONLY THE FIRST SECTION Of the real Shaolin DA LOHAN FORM. it’s only a piece of the big Lohan form, the first 29 moves. And sometimes this form is called the Xiao, the small lohan, but that is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Shaolin Encyclopedia Volume 2, page 194, what they call the Er Lu Lo Han form, but it in actuality is known most places as the real XIAO LOHAN form, except the version shown in vol 2 is the longest version of the form seen anywhere else. So, the name of the form is wrong, but the fact that it has all the moves that are often missing everywhere else is good.
In Volume 2 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, on page 198, they show the correct Xiao Lohan Quan form, but it is missing the end section of the form (which is shown in the Er Lu Quan form in Shaolin Ency, volume 2 ).
The VCD BEB-844, Shaolin Lohan Quan, in actuality shows the form XIAO lohan quan, pretty much as shown in Volume 2 of Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, on page 198.
In Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, the correct version of the real ER LU LOHAN Quan form, shown on page 293.
This form is incorrectly labeled as Lohan Quan form in the book Shaolin Chuan Tong Wu Shu Pu Ji Jiao Cai, Shaolin Quan volume, page 101. recently published.
Now, the VCD Shaolin Da Lo Han Quan, VW526-7, Chinese Kungu Wu Shu series
is really in actuality really the ER LU Lohan Quan Form, as shown exactly in Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School in Henan.
The VCD, BWS-226, Er Lu Lohan Quan, Chinese KungFu Series, shows the correct Er Lu form, as shown in Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms.
Also, the VCD, BWS-166-07 Shaolin Lohan Quan is actually the Er Lu Lohan form (not so great).
In Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, on page 507, there is a form there correctly called Da Lohan Quan, but it is only 3/4th of the form.
The rest of the form is found in a book called Shaolin Shi ? Da Lu, ISBN 5349-1753-0, starting on page 296. Between the two books, the most complete version known so far of Da Lohan Quan can be put together, if a side by side comparison is done. I have done so.
In the book called Shaolin Shi ? Da Lu, ISBN 5349-1753-0, starting on page 256, is a form that they call Shaolin Lohan 18 HANDS, that they attribute to Li Shu, during the Yuan Dynasty. I have never seen this particular Lohan 18 Hands form anywhere else before. It looks nothing like anything I have ever seen.
(By the way, this same book shows the long lost Yi, Er, and San Lu forms of the Da Hong Quan forms, NOT the one that is currently taught at Shaolin, but the Da Hong Quan forms that match in style with the Xiao Hong Quan form everyone know, the one that is linked to the Tai Tzu Chang Quan form taught in Shaolin.)
The VCD VW522-7, Old Frame Hammering Series, 18 Hands of the Small Arhat (lohan) Boxing shows a very short 18 Hands form that doesn;t match anything I have seen anywhere else. IT is not one of the ones shown in roads 1 to 9 in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, but it is kinda close to Road 1 in that book. It is a mystery what form this very short form really is. Is it really a new training form? An abbreviated Road 1 of the 18 Hands of the Lohan?
Also, this VCD is a little bit close to the form called Lohan 18 hands on page 1 in the book Shaolin Chuan Tong Wu Shu Pu Ji Jiao Cai, Shaolin Quan volume and to the form called 18 Hands Route 1 in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. Between these two books, these two forms match, but the end of the form is slightly out of sequence from each other (moves are in reverse order at the end).
The VCD VW522-6, the Small Arhat (Lohan) Boxing, Old Frame Hammering series, shows a Lohan form that doesn’t match up to what is really considered the Xiao Lohan form in correct sources. It is a mystery what form this is really.
The book, Shaolin Quan, volume 3, ISBN 7-81003-236-4, shows a long lost form called Er Lu Xiao Lohan Quan. it is supposed to be exactly what it is named, the second road of the real Xiao Lohan Quan form.
Finally, the book Shaolin Quan Wu Shu, volume 2, ISBN 7-81003-285-2, shows two forms from Lohan style, both incorrectly named. Page 38 has a form they call 18 Lohan Hands, which is the same form shown as Er Lu 18 Lohan Hands in the Shaolin Encyclopedia (the second form of the 18 Lohan hands sets). On page 47 there is a form they call Xiao Lohan Quan which is the same as the form called Lohan Quan in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, which makes it in actuality the first section of the Da Lohan Quan form, but for some reason it is called the Xiao Lohan Quan in this book.
According to my calculations, the form shown in the 1998 issue is Road One (or first form) of the 18 Lohan Hand forms, there are 9 Roads shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.
The form in the 2001 issue is commonly called Xiao Lohan in Shaolin today, but it really is section one of the real 108 move Da Lohan form.
I carefully watched the VCD of the 18 Hands form mentioned above.
It looks like it IS the form shown is indeed pretty much Road One of the 18 Hands of the Lohan, as also shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.
The only thing is that it contains 4-5 extra moves and near the end it does the moves in a different order than the traditional way to do the form.
Weird.
Makes you wonder about all the other Shaolin forms in this VCD series (Old Frame shaoin). If they go modernizing the forms, what the point of putting out the vcds and claiming that they are the old way to do the forms?
Shaolin lately always seems associated with bull or incorrect info.
can the original poster re post this question at www.emptyflower.com for the attention of Dr Kenneth Fish, he may well be able to help with a lot of information on the Lohan system. I belive he learned the complete system from a Master Wu.