SGF,
Not to be disrespectful but your posts are getting harder and harder to follow. What legend is that? Is it documented anywhere where we might get a more detailed account of this legend?
The only story I have read involving a praying mantis in the road comes from the Taoist philosopher, Chuang-Tzu. He taught a lesson on life using a mantis standing in the road and a cart fast approaching the mantis. The bold and brash mantis in defiance and obstinance, raised its two forearms to stop the cart not knowing its limitations. Sorry, there is no heroic miraculous ending for this story. How can a little mantis stop a cart from crushing it? Chuang-Tzu used this story to teach many things like how a king should rule or how man should live. The moral of the story is that man should know his limitations or place in the universe otherwise he will be crushed by that which he cannot control like the bold mantis that thought it could stop the cart.
Getting back to your legend, I don’t quite follow it based on what you have told. Are there more details that you have left out? How does it imply that Wong Long already knew of Mantis fighting before he started the style? Because some military leader decided to call his soldiers mantis soldiers? Because they fashioned weapons in the shape of Mantis forearms? How does that imply they fought with Mantis concepts or principles? If they did, then how is it that Wong Long is credited with the development of the Mantis Style?
If anyone can help me out or has heard this legend and can explain it to me, I would appreciate it because all I have now are just questions.
In the legend that is taught at our school, Wong Long captured and observed a mantis. He provoked it with a straw and after careful analysis discovered that the mantis used 12 principle methods of attack and defense which he then formulated into the 12 Keyword Formula. So you can say the movements of the mantis insect inspired the creation of the keywords which then developed into more techniques.
YM
SGF,
I can not understand this app.
You say that I am in Mantis catches cicada followed by left rolling elbow etc.
Is this from Beng Bu?
What is rolling elbow?
Of the 64 elbow techniques I don’t recall one called rolling elbow.
Only Roliing Dragon Elbow which I don’t think exists in 7* especially not 7* from HK.
Most impotant, what is the other person doing while I am doing this elbow as well as the following moves?
Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]SGF,
…What is rolling elbow?..
[/B]
I was kinda wondering what the rolling elbow is also. Maybe some hidden technique within Mantis Catches Cicada?
Re: You might rabbit, you might…
Originally posted by seung ga faat
But, am I right?
There is another legend that states Wong Long created Mantis because he was inspired by a story about a mantis blocking a roadway keeping a battalion of soldiers and a tank from passing…
This legend is similar to a legend I remember reading about in another post in the PM forum, but I think it had something to do with the origin of the name of a PM form (Big Chariot/Small Chariot?).
back to the original comment/question…
Cool,…so anyway,…about the body movement comments from SGF?? Many questions asked that are good ones.
If your interested in the beginings of the style, lets start a new thread on it.
Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]I think I see the application.
Using the right foot to perform a dengpu(dengta) type throw.
What is a “Dengta” type throw? Can you give an example of it in a PM form?
While the method you describe …
“…carrying your adversaries leg and picking it from it’s foundation…”
…clearly falls under tie kao…Tie kao already includes all the methods where legs touch and takedowns involving legs are performed…
I thought “tie kao” had to do with leaning against your opponent to knock him down. Do all PM throws and/or take-downs fall under Tie Kao?
Mantisben,
Tell me the names of 7* forms you are familiar with and I will tell you which is deng ta.
TIE KAO
One of the full quotes is tie men kao bi.
It means press the gate and lean on the wall.
Think of an old very large gate.
You have to firmly put your handds on it to push it closed.
Very similar to how you push your opponent with your hands against his hands.
Now think of how you lean on a wall.
It is with your shoulder.
Can you see how leaning follows pressing?
First hands make contact then body makes contact.
Do all throws and takedowns fall under tie kao?
The point is debateable, but to me at least some takedowns don’t fall under tie kao.
Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Mantisben,
Tell me the names of 7* forms you are familiar with and I will tell you which is deng ta.
Partial List of 7* forms:
White Ape Exits Cave
White Ape Steals Peach
Spear Hand
Crushing Steps
PM Steals the Peach
Plum Blossum Hand
3rd Route Essence
18 Old Men
Avoiding the Rigid
YM and others,
The elbow/forearm I am speaking of follows mantis embraces cicada(immortality). The arm makes a counter-clockwise circle as it descends and retreats similar to roll back in Tai Chi. It is immediately followed by a left CCW hook hand folllowed by a palm strike foward.
The legend I am speaking of was written in the magazine Martial Art of China. The issue was on martial arts of Shandong and it included this legend. The article said it was this that legend that influenced Wong Long to create the mantis style. I also was retold this story by Sifu Marlon Ma of Wutang Martial Arts he is Disciple of Master Su.
rambler
Health shop
Can’t understand a word posted, in any of your posts, it seems like are you trying to come off, like your so overeducated in terms of Mantis knowledge, maybe that’s why you can’t explain what the HELL you are talking about?
Skard1
mantisben,
In HK 7* the term is usually called deng pu, not deng ta.
I don’t know the Cantonese pronunciation though.
Sometimes the term tun ta(same ta in deng ta) is also used, but it only signifies the deng ta throw about half the time.
In the form Mei Hua lu/ I think you translate as falling plum flowers has a good example of this throw as the fourth move of the form.
Also, in the mpeg thread I posted is an example of this throw.
It is called deng ta.
We have this throw in the first road of cha chuei almost exactly like the vid clip I posted.
That is the biggest difference between your cha chuei and mine.
In meihua Lu the throw is the same in principle, but the hand strike is different.
You can see that the thrower and throwee both have the right leg in contact.
The way we learn deng pu, as opposed to deng ta, is the thrower has the LEFT leg against the throwee’s right leg.
In HK 7*, I assume that is your style, the differentation of the name is made by the hand technique used.
Of course this name stuff isn’t too important, but sometimes is useful to know when comparing manuscripts from different teachers.
Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
mantisben,
In the form Mei Hua lu/ I think you translate as falling plum flowers has a good example of this throw as the fourth move of the form.
AaahHaaaaa! The 4th movement IS a throw! I can find this kind of throw in at least 4 of the forms I know. I don’t know all of the “Plum Blossum Falling”, but I’ve got the Won Hon Fun book on the form. I’ll be looking for it in the other forms I know.
The way we learn deng pu, as opposed to deng ta, is the thrower has the LEFT leg against the throwee’s right leg.
Actually, in the first road of Cha Chui/“Spear Hand” - as it was taught to me - has the Deng Ta throw twice (I think). It is executed simultaneously with an elbow strike in the first and third roads.
If in Deng Ta - as opposed to Deng Pu - the left leg is making contact with the opponent’s right leg, isn’t there an example of this type of throw in the 2nd road of Bung Bo? In Bung Bo (HK7*) first the lunge punch with the right fist in a right “Bow and Arrow” stance, then the White Ape grab in a left foot forward Horse Stance, then the waist-chop in a left “Bow and Arrow” stance?
In HK 7*, I assume that is your style, the differentation of the name is made by the hand technique used.
In Bung Bo - Palm Strike to the Waist, Left Leg contact with opponents right leg
In Cha Chui/“Spear Hand” - Elbow Strike, right leg contact with opponents right leg.
I believe I practice the 7* HK PM. Thank you again for your instruction.
I know you have to teach and practice, so please answer when you have the time. I’ll be waiting…
Utmost Respectfully,
MantisBen
Mantisben,
Cha Chuei is almost all deng pu type throws.
But in our school it has 3 deng ta throws also.
The first one is the with the hook punch in the first road.
I see from WHF book that he calls it reverse lu-lu. That is different from ours.
But one of my students studied with Tony Clark and I see that he does it the same way I learned it which is different from WHF book.
The second deng ta is also in the first road.
It is with the elbow strike near the end of the first road.
The third deng ta is the elbow at the beginning of the third road.
WHF calls it little deng pu.
Since these throws can all be done as deng ta or deng pu you and others may do it differently.
The technique in 2nd road of beng bu you refer to is called, even in WHF manuscript, Tyrant treats and waist chop.
I don’t know of any such thing as, “white ape grab”
It is different from these other throws. It is ko fa or the confining method.
BTW, As there was some talk of the 7* stance the other day, it’s chief use is also ko fa.
The difference is if you step to the inside or outside of your opponent’s front leg.
Some comments:
The technique in 2nd road of beng bu you refer to is called, even in WHF manuscript, Tyrant treats and waist chop.
I don’t know of any such thing as, “white ape grab”
It is different from these other throws. It is ko fa or the confining method.
I agree that this technique does not really fall under dengpu (dung pok in Cantonese) although I do regard it as more than just a confining technique but also a takedown as well.
The difference is if you step to the inside or outside of your opponent’s front leg.
From this statement it seems that you define dengpu as a takedown by sweeping the inside of the opponent’s front leg. This seems limiting to me as I have been taught to apply the dengpu type throws found in Chop Choi by sweeping either inside or outside the front leg. Did I interpret your post correctly?
I believe the difference is in what you are doing to the opponents leg. In dengpu, I am displacing the opponents leg as in a sweep. This is regardless of inside or outside. In kau fa, as you explain, I am stepping behind the opponent’s leg to confine or trap the opponent but I have the choice of applying a throw.
YM
YM,
The point I was trying to make is that in your 7* PM the deng pu throw is like you say.
While I learned Deng Ta to differeentiate between the 2 differences you mentioned.
So, in our school…
Deng Pu:
My right leg sweeps inside of your left leg.
Deng Ta:
My right leg sweeps outside of your right leg.
Confining technique in 2nd road of beng bu “waist chop” is also a takedown as you say.
TM,
I see. Thank you for the clarification on the terms. As far as I know, we don’t differentiate by name inside or outside. What would the “ta” character in “deng ta” translate as? I am just curious what the Chinese character is for your term.
Thanks,
YM
Deng Ta & Deng Pu
I use the same appellation as Tainan
<<<Deng Pu:
My right leg sweeps inside of your left leg.
Deng Ta:
My right leg sweeps outside of your right leg.>>>
Pu (pok in Cantonese) describes the way the opponent falls which is facing down. Essentially, he is being sent forward to the ground face first.
Ta (Taap in Cantonese) describes the way the opponent falls which is facing up. Essentically, he is being sent backward to the ground back of skull first. If this is done correctly, it is quite lethal because of a fractured skull.
Mantis108
Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
The technique in 2nd road of beng bu you refer to is called, even in WHF manuscript, Tyrant treats and waist chop.
I don’t know of any such thing as, “white ape grab”
It is different from these other throws. It is ko fa or the confining method.
I’ve always thought that the double-hand grab - your right-hand, palm down, grabs the opponents right-arm near the wrist, and your left-hand, palm up, grabs the opponents right-arm just above the elbow - was the “White Ape” grab.
I think it is also used in the form “Plum Blossum Hand”, as the last movement in the 1st road. The double-hand grab is combined with a low right-leg sweep.
When you wrote “Tyrant treats” did you mean “Tyrant Retreats”? Is that the movement in the 2nd road of Bung Bo where you grab your opponents arm with both hands then shift into a horse stance?
If the correct name of this technique is called “Tyrant Retreats”, I want to call the technique by it’s correct name.
Originally posted by Young Mantis
[B]Some comments:
…I believe the difference is in what you are doing to the opponents leg. In dengpu, I am displacing the opponents leg as in a sweep. This is regardless of inside or outside. In kau fa, as you explain, I am stepping behind the opponent’s leg to confine or trap the opponent but I have the choice of applying a throw.
YM [/B]
Would it be accurate to state the following (in your school)?
Deng Pu: Sweeping/displacing opponents leg to throw opponent
Deng Ta: Confining opponents leg to throw opponent
Originally posted by mantisben
[B]
Would it be accurate to state the following (in your school)?
Deng Pu: Sweeping/displacing opponents leg to throw opponent
Deng Ta: Confining opponents leg to throw opponent [/B]
Mantisben,
That would not be correct. To my knowledge, we do not use the term deng ta at all. Confining the opponents leg as in using the 7* stance falls under kau fa or locking methods.
YM