Flem,
Are you trying to make fun of us?
tainan,
no, just wondering:)
Re: YM & 108
Originally posted by seung ga faat
For example; in Bung Bo you open with evade,parry & step followed by punch & Step.
Now let’s look at the leg’s and feet. The right leg and foot travel in a clockwise hooking pattern so that it lands behind your adversaries lead leg.
This step is followed by a step back in the direction you just came from but you are carrying you adversaries leg and picking it from it’s foundation.
Good technique.
I used to think of the 12 keywords in pairs. Now, I tend to think of each keyword individually. Not to say that I don’t EVER think of the 12 keywords in pairs anymore. But looking at each keyword individually is definitely enriching my knowlege (what little I have) of Praying Mantis techniques for fighting.
I will continue…
Now you are in mantis catches cicada act,followed by left rolling elbow-right gathering hand,left hook-outward hand,left ccw circling palm and suspend-crashing/piercing palm.(during this act the left arm/hand sticks to the adversaries right arm and seeks to break his arm and collar bone)(the right hand uses suptle controlling, gathering and plucking to gain leverage and the juen bo is used to stay ahead of the adversaries escapes and counters)
Let’s see we have lean, hook,gather,suspend,crash/crush,beat and pluck along with,stick/cling & advance to name just a few principles all contained in this simple portion of the Bung Bo attack. 
SGF,
I understand you are trying to find the 12 keywords in the BB form. I don’t however follow your explanation of the techniques. I think it would be more clear if you could explain what your opponent is doing as well…in a sense, what is the ling side to your interpretation of this form? This would explain a lot about your choice of body position, footwork, and application.
YM
include ling
Yeah,
It is tough to understand technique from reading.
One I find easy to read is like this…
Yi and Jia are the names given to the two opponents in most manuscripts of many different styles.
Yi and Jia: face off in left stance.
Yi: left straight punch
Jia: intercepts with left straight punch
Yi: presses said punch and sends right straight punch
Jia: intercepts with right straight punch
Double Seal
Yi: right hand grabs (Jia’s right hand) and left hand grabs or presses(Jia’s right elbow).
As Yi is doing this he jumps(lift right leg first) to his right and closer to Jia.
He places his left leg behind Jia’s left leg.
If Jia moves back then…
Well…
I am under the impression that SGF is describing using the Mantis Catches Cicada to deal with a right lead straight punch. He is looking at the nuances of the move and trying to associate the 12 keywords with them as much as possible. I surmise he’s trying to come across the idea of Chai, which is to look at infinite changes that is available to a move. Chai, in WHF view, is not to repeat what is already taught in Ling and Pi stages but to look into other possiblities. In this case, SGF would be attempting to work with the 12 keywords of his style and from his lineage’s perspective.
Just a thought
Mantis108
maybe a dumb and certainly an ignorant question…
but
why could you not take the 12 key words (whatever they happen to be for you) and place them on x and y coordinates and then explore the combinations? certainly, some of them may not work together but wouldn’t that be a good exercise?
from what reading I have done it seems that the 12 key words are usually paired in a linear fashion. why wouldn’t you take 1,3,6 {for example} and work them together?(or see if they worked somehow)
just a curious thought.
108,
yes,yes,yes…
Also the keywords are just words used to describe actions after they have happened.Artists always title their art after the fact.
Mantis a longfist art.The attacks are like one continuous or long fist.The attacks are movements and changes in movement these changes are described by the keywords.Movements are not bound by the keywords that one of the reasons for keys, they are to open locks and perhaps behind the locked doors is where the true treasure lies.
Hi Seung Ga Faat
Thank you for the clarification and thanks for sharing your methodology.
Best regrads
Mantis108
Mantis108,
I understand SGF is trying to explore options or variations to the form. When I asked for the “ling”, I was asking for what the other person is doing so that I might understand more clearly what SGF was trying to describe. Tainan understood what I meant. All of SGF’s descriptions are very one sided. He does not mention how his opponent reacts to each of these techniques which I think is important to understand his technique. I was not asking for his version of the Ling Bung Bo form. Perhaps the word “ling” threw you off. Not “Ling Bung Bo” proper, “ling” as in the “other” side. I don’t think SGF is trying to present “Ling Bung Bo”. I don’t even know if he knows that form. Just trying to get a clearer picture.
SGF,
Yes, movement is not bound by keywords. You can move in a fashion that does not fit any of the keywords. But then are you still doing mantis? Individual movement does not make mantis. Forming your hand into a mantis diew sau does not make something mantis. The keywords define or guide the style. The treasure may be behind the locked doors. But if you do not know how to use the keys, then you may never know how to unlock those doors to get the treasure.
I actually don’t put that much emphasis on the keywords. I understand them and accept them for what they are. A guideline of the style. But for us, we are taught the techniques, practice them and their applications and later figure out which keywords they belong to. It sounds to me that some people look at the keywords and try to create or figure out applications for them. Kind of like reverse-engineering. While I think there is some value to that as an exercise, I have enough material to practice that keeps me quite busy as it is.
Good luck with your continued exploration of the style.
YM
Hi Young Mantis
I hear you and I understand where you are coming from. I would like to address few impressions regarding SGF’s posts and subsequently yours.
-
I am uncertain whether SGF is fully prepare for an indepth discussion of such an interesting topic. It would seem that he is tossing an idea around. May be he did not taken into account the critical thinking skills and knowledgeable practitioners that frequence this forum.
-
It is not fair IMHO to gauge his understanding or knowledge of his style and lineage based on little that he is willing to release. So I believe it would be better to give him benefit of the doubt. Perhaps when he reorganized his thoughts and take the time to layout a more detailed input, we would then see his depth of knowledge.
-
Frankly, I am underwhelm by his seemingly, as you would put it, reverse engineering approach which also IMHO has a strong hint of JKD. Having said that I still appreciate his sharing and efforts. Again I am merely saying that his earlier post gave me that impression which he already clarified that he did not know of JKD teachings.
-
We must also remember that not all PM practitioners have access to PM classics or Quanpu. It is somewhat of a handicap; hence, reinventing the wheel may be necessary for some. Patience and assistance should be offered by those who are fortunate to have come across such material. This way the PM community would only grow stronger.
-
As far as I am concern, I do not think that breaking down the nuance of a move and/or founding the 12 keywords within the context of a move, or even combination for that matter, indicates greater level of understanding nor attainment of PM. Since there exists many versions of 12 keywords which are different drastically from style to style. I fear that type of knowledge, however wonderful by perception, would only carry the PM study within the confines of the Kwoon.
-
I understand that you, Tainan, and I pretty much think in similar terms when it comes to applications since we have similar training backgrounds and might have similar training (I believe your Sifu and myself have the same teacher and I have worked with Tainan in person) and study material. We tend to look at countering of the opponent immediately and not just the initial attack by the opp and stop at that point. I believe that level of understanding and respect is clear and present.
Finally, I think we should encourage dialogue and sharing however great and small. This way we would raise the awareness and promote Praying Mantis Kung Fu.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Mantis108,
First let me say that I am not trying to discourage any conversation of the style. I asked for clarification only to better understand his point of view. I do not think I fully understand his interpretation because I believe we are not envisioning the same scenario. It then makes it difficult for me to participate in the discussion.
To address your other points:
- I am uncertain whether SGF is fully prepare for an indepth discussion of such an interesting topic. It would seem that he is tossing an idea around. May be he did not taken into account the critical thinking skills and knowledgeable practitioners that frequence this forum.
I thought he was. SGF has posted many times in the past and often in a similar voice. As Tainan asked: “I don’t see if you are trying to stimulate our thought so we have a deeper understanding or just trying to teach us.” Frankly, it has always sounded like the latter to me.
- It is not fair IMHO to gauge his understanding or knowledge of his style and lineage based on little that he is willing to release. So I believe it would be better to give him benefit of the doubt. Perhaps when he reorganized his thoughts and take the time to layout a more detailed input, we would then see his depth of knowledge.
This is why I ask for clarification. I am not trying to test his knowledge of the style and lineage. I am aware of who he is and who he trained with. I do not question his place in the Mantis community. But it seems that his view or interpretation of the style differs even from his own sect and although I do not believe that to be wrong, it would be more helpful to understand his views if there were more details.
- As far as I am concern, I do not think that breaking down the nuance of a move and/or founding the 12 keywords within the context of a move, or even combination for that matter, indicates greater level of understanding nor attainment of PM. Since there exists many versions of 12 keywords which are different drastically from style to style. I fear that type of knowledge, however wonderful by perception, would only carry the PM study within the confines of the Kwoon.
I agree wholeheartedly. I have never had so many discussions about the 12 keywords as I have seen on KFO. As I said, it is not something we sit around and discuss. I think understanding them as concepts is important to understanding the style but knowing the applications and how to apply them is more important to the average mantis practitioner.
Let me say once more, I am not questioning anyone’s legitimacy, knowledge, or expertise in the style. Perhaps my comments that are meant to be general reflections on the style are taken as attacks on individuals. They are not. I address people’s points and then make comments related to them but I am not in any position to question anyone’s stance on the style. I know what has been taught to me and what I have taken from the style.
YM
Is my way the Mantis Way?
It is not the just beginning and finishing shapes that define a style or usage of a style. It also is not these things that make the style effective.
What defines and makes a style effective is understanding it’s way of energy and force usage.
PM was created out of need and ego according to most of the legends. And it seems that since the need is gone all we have left is …
It is not that I underestimated anyone on this forum at all. In fact it is quite the opposite.I
thought I would be able to hear about other peoples
personal ways of looking at all the info they have received.
I will close with a question; how many times have you thought you were absolutely right about the usage of this art only, to be humbled by your lack of understanding?
Re: Hi Young Mantis
Originally posted by mantis108
[B]
- As far as I am concern, I do not think that breaking down the nuance of a move and/or founding the 12 keywords within the context of a move, or even combination for that matter, indicates greater level of understanding nor attainment of PM. Since there exists many versions of 12 keywords which are different drastically from style to style. I fear that type of knowledge, however wonderful by perception, would only carry the PM study within the confines of the Kwoon.
Mantis108 [/B]
When PM was first developed, did the founders first come up with the PM techniques, then develop the PM keywords, or did they develop the PM keywords first, then develop the techniques to abide by the keywords? I think the PM principles came first, but I don’t know for sure.
Also, if you have TCPM, MeiHua PM, 7*PM, and 8-Step PM interpret the keywords differently, I would assume (and I know I should’t. It gets me in trouble often.) that learning the interpretation of the keywords for that particular branch of PM would give you a better insight into THEIR PM style.
Do ALL of the TCPM or 7*PM techniques follow the PM keywords for their branch? If they do, then those keywords are IMPORTANT, and studying and analyzing them thoroughly are important to understanding the techniques within your branch.
If no ALL PM techniques follow the keywords for their branch, then the keywords are NOT important because you can do PM without them. I don’t know all PM techniques to say authoritatively, that they ALL follow the PM keywords.
Maybe they’re called "key"words because they “unlock” the doors that YoungMantis mentioned. Maybe not…
I humbly accept any correction and/or rebuke.
Re: I will continue…
SGF, No need to close out,…what was the ling side of these techniques you described?
(Or did you…I need to re-read the post)
BTL
Originally posted by seung ga faat
Now you are in mantis catches cicada act,followed by left rolling elbow-right gathering hand,left hook-outward hand,left ccw circling palm and suspend-crashing/piercing palm.(during this act the left arm/hand sticks to the adversaries right arm and seeks to break his arm and collar bone)(the right hand uses suptle controlling, gathering and plucking to gain leverage and the juen bo is used to stay ahead of the adversaries escapes and counters)
Let’s see we have lean, hook,gather,suspend,crash/crush,beat and pluck along with,stick/cling & advance to name just a few principles all contained in this simple portion of the Bung Bo attack.
Originally posted by Young Mantis I have never had so many discussions about the 12 keywords as I have seen on KFO
Same here. During the time when I was with Sifu Lai, I can’t recall it ever being a topic of discussion 
-N-
BTL I am not leaving cause it’s duck season
This reminds me of the famous looney tunes; take me home and shoot me or shoot me now ?
If the principles of mantis came first then we must have some Reading & Writing Insect Sifu’s out there
Re: BTL I am not leaving cause it’s duck season
Originally posted by seung ga faat
If the principles of mantis came first then we must have some Reading & Writing Insect Sifu’s out there
You are right. The techniques of the Praying Mantis insect came first. I stand corrected. However, not ALL of the Praying Mantis techniques came from the insect (or did they?). Principles were derived from the PM insect’s techniques, then MORE techniques were created adhering to the principles. These techniques were considered PM ONLY because they adhered to the PM principles.
Again, the techiques of the Praying Mantis insect came before the Praying Mantis System Principles, Keywords, methods, theories, etc.. You are right Seung Ga Faat!
You might rabbit, you might…
But, am I right?
There is another legend that states Wong Long created Mantis because he was inspired by a story about a mantis blocking a roadway keeping a battalion of soldiers and a tank from passing. The leader lifted and carried the mantis to the side of the road. The leader created weapons Shaped like mantis and called the soldiers mantis soldiers.
The Legend implies Wong Long already knew about mantis fighting when he started the style