Hi, with all the post, some one might have already provided the information sought in this post, if this is the case, please re direct to the place(s), if available!
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sux bein the new guy lol
rhyme and reason
as Summer blossoms, I’ll explain the reason I asked about these hands,
… is because in July, I am supposed to learn Zhao Yang Quan, which will be the first “new” form added to my “soul scroll” since about 2014.
After going thru some Luohan Chambers the past couple months, its been a refreshing journey, I’ll likely spend the rest of this month cleaning the slate in terms of rhythm, doing pure conditioning, qi gong, & maybe some san shou just to stay ready 
…the session starts July 5th and goes till the 31st. gives me enough time to prepare.
Send me good vibes!
Bright Sun right in time for Summer
This class goes on for a month. This is like a crash course in memorization. Like learning, to recite the Tao Te Ching, in pure classical Mandarin, and not knowing what ANY word means lol… and some of us are taught this way because of minimal access to our teachers. They visit us when theyre around and exchange what they see fit, and vise versa, if I’m able to reach a teacher, I’m going to visit, no questions asked. These visits make up everything for some who dont train in one place, who train on the road at various schools, or to those who have abandoned schools/kwoon/guan/dojo etc all together. “Meeting of styles” is great with peers, and PRECIOUS with Shifu.
my disclaimer: One fist from Shaolin is worth decades of study, crash coursing is not recommended if you dont plan on spending time with what you learn during the course, for YEARS to come, such is Gong Fu. Since I started training (18 years ago), I can count on one hand how may “forms” I know, and of those, only a few can I apply technique from, with specifics in a real time situation. So this isn’t usually how its transmitted. this was summoned specifically for this summer , and by request. Its just time for Bright Sun boxing. 
the next time I take up a new form will likely be in at least 5 years.
So the technical insight I was looking for, we may still discuss, as I progress through this session, and after. I’m interested in your knowledge of this particular hand, its poem, and why it was titled and taught as it is. I rarely hear of this style, and never see it performed, when I do, however, the signature on it is potent, always makes me wonder what the lineage was to forming this hand.
The integrity of the style, reminds me, structurally of Luohan Boxing because of the postures, and navigation. The body moves along the compass the same way, also in Hong Boxing, some of the same navigation. Now,the stories, and or lynx to why things like this happen in Shaolin Boxing are always great to learn for me as a student. During this course I wont be allowed to ask questions like this lol, not much talking going on, and the language barriers are serious , so for what I can manage, I focus on the training. I’ll keep updated, and share what I can however, Im sure some one there will know something lol.
Amituofo
Sorry, I do not know any answers to your questions but wanted to wish you best success and stay strong and stay hungry!
[QUOTE=mengfei;1314409]Sorry, I do not know any answers to your questions but wanted to wish you best success and stay strong and stay hungry![/QUOTE]
thank you, I will ! Amituofo!
insights
thus far, () Zhao Yang Quan’s origin is attributed to Shi Zhan Ju, who is recorded entering the temple around 1789. The style was formed years after his arrival and interpretation of what he learned in terms of Shaolin’s composite “curriculum” of hands at the time, he’s also credited with forming several other popular hands, namely Lian Huan Quan (let’s argue) , as well as wind chasing palm. He built these styles largely with influence from Luohan Quan, and Tong Bi quan, which explains what I was feeling from the movements similarities.
Amituofo
almost there!
this class is almost finished, Friday being the final day of teaching the form. When I started this thread, I was looking at the form from the outside, and I “saw” similarities that made me question the origins of this fist, and its relation to Da Luohan and Hong boxing. Now that I have experienced the form, I have to say, some of it is exactly like Da Luohan boxing.
So my antennae still work. Im glad some of you elders (:p) keep quiet on my questions, because figuring out some of this stuff on my own is much more rewarding. Just the journey of getting to the answer alone, sometimes is just as, or more, exciting and refreshing as the answer itself.
if I can get over my camera phobia, I will post some vids of my interpretations of the Taolu.
Amituofo
Hurting and humbled
the Zhao Yang Quan session completed yesterday and this morning we met to do a couple hours of qigong and stretching. very much in need, and really brought the pain lol, made me think, there are no easy roads in Shaolin. it looks easy on the outside, if you know, you know. flexibility comes thru lots of pain, strength comes thru pain, speed and power, all thru pain lol, even balance and taolu, to get good “skill” (GONG) you gotta feel the PAIN! man, all that aside, it was a great session and I learned more than I expected , and got inspired to expand my ability and foundation which I did expect to happen.
understanding the mechanics of Hong Quan, Luohan Quan, Tong Bei and Zhao Yang Quan to say the least, takes years of practice. not speculation, actual practice. this session proved that to me, I was able to answer the question to a lot of subtleties within the forms.
still waiting to hear from you all on your experience with Zhao Yang Quan. or your understanding of the mechanics of these family of fists
this class was a closed session , however in September there is another open session/ month long class on the Qi Xing Boxing (Qi Xing sect) if anyone in the area (northbay) is interested. aside from the forms, some history and Ch’an, I know that form application will be a major topic, and Changhuxingyimen will also be covered with application.
Have you contacted Rendahai? He may have some answers for you and its a pleasure to correspond with him! You could probably ask through his Youtube. Only thing is he might not be online lately.
Personally never done those forms myself as I’m doing Xinyiliuhe currently. Good luck!
[QUOTE=NotGreg;1314664]Have you contacted Rendahai? He may have some answers for you and its a pleasure to correspond with him! You could probably ask through his Youtube. Only thing is he might not be online lately.
Personally never done those forms myself as I’m doing Xinyiliuhe currently. Good luck!:)[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I haven’t talked to RDH about it, I’ll have to reach out. There’s a few “elder scholars” on this board, & like you said about RDH theyre all most likely busy and not online much no doubt, I just have to keep my antenna up lol, I’ll get in touch with one of them soon enough.
and XinYi LiuHe ? has a solid root in it, wouldnt mind hearing your understanding on it, I dont know much about it outside of my own research, what does the system include in terms of the animals and forms and in what order are you supposed to learn?
here I go with the questions…might be a thread on it somewhere
thanks for the encouragement!
Amituofo
Still looking for some guidance on Mi Zong Quan, one question thats bugging me is, is this hand related to or rooted in the Qi Xing sect of hands, because it looks like it, yet it doesnt move on a line like them, it moves around more like Da Luohan …
if anyone has a little more facts/history/knowledge on the style , I’d like to hear about it!
also I read somewhere that Shaolin Mizong Quan is what Jet Li used in ‘Fist of Legend’ …is this true?
thanks
Amituofo
hi, Djuan and others,
haven’t been in this forum for a long time, just saw your posts and some others. I might have some satisfactory answers for you. just i have to put my head together first, finding solutions for some problems, if forum boys could give me a hand.
i’ll get back on this topic and more in a few days. see ya!
hi, dear Djuan and others.
it’s a long time i’m planning to cover these subjects in some detail under a more general subject. it may be the time now.
just, there’s a problem in buying some DVD series that i should post on the forum in a few days to get some help by the boys here, after that we get back to discussion.
cheers!
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1315445]hi, dear Djuan and others.
it’s a long time i’m planning to cover these subjects in some detail under a more general subject. it may be the time now.
just, there’s a problem in buying some DVD series that i should post on the forum in a few days to get some help by the boys here, after that we get back to discussion.
cheers![/QUOTE]
Nice
Looking forward to your insight brother! thanks for the guidance! what ever the problem is, Buddha prevails! Always! Keep around, spread truth ! Shaolin loves you, Shaolin the truth!
Amituofo
back on track…
hi there,
let’s begin.
in the Shaolin kung fu forms playlist (YouTube) these are the 18 famous Shaolin forms, play any video, look at the video description underneath, and read the main points about the history of the form, its combat strategy, and some notes.
- combat strategy:
this style teaches combining multiple moves. its main tactics are:
tactic 17 of 36 - “mud water to catch fish ()”: combine moves together simultaneously, to dazzle the opponent like the sun. for example, attack with 2 or 3 of your limbs (arms, legs, head, etc.) together at the same time.
tactic 18 of 36 - “chain tactic ()”: chain moves together consequently, by one move force the opponent into a disadvantage, by your next move take the advantage. for example, attack opponent’s upper/lower body to make him open his lower/upper body guard, then easily attack there; etc.
tactic 19 of 36 - “repair the way in the open, cross the city in the dark (, )”: combine overt moves with a covert attack. for example, while your upper body overtly attacks or defends to distract the opponent, your lower body covertly attacks simultaneously or consequently, or vice versa.
tactic 20 of 36 - “besiege enemy capital to rescue friendly city ()”: combine overt moves with a covert defense. for example, while your upper body is defending against opponent’s attack, do an overt attack with your lower body to distract the opponent from his attack, or vice versa.
these involve multiple upper and lower limbs move simultaneously or consequently.
- history:
Qing dynasty (1644-1912):
in the early 1800s, monk Zhanju () created the ‘small sunny form’ (: chao yang quan, which means sunward style or morning sun) based on a combination of various other styles. he later improved the overall strategical level of the form and named it the ‘big sunny form’ (: zhao yang quan, which means bright sun, like the noon sun, which is brighter than the morning sun).
see if this gives the answers.
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1315574]hi there,
let’s begin.
in the Shaolin kung fu forms playlist (YouTube) these are the 18 famous Shaolin forms, play any video, look at the video description underneath, and read the main points about the history of the form, its combat strategy, and some notes.
see if this gives the answers.[/QUOTE]
Shaolin kung fu sunny style (: yang quan) (YouTube):
- combat strategy:
this style teaches combining multiple moves. its main tactics are:
tactic 17 of 36 - “mud water to catch fish ()”: combine moves together simultaneously, to dazzle the opponent like the sun. for example, attack with 2 or 3 of your limbs (arms, legs, head, etc.) together at the same time.
tactic 18 of 36 - “chain tactic ()”: chain moves together consequently, by one move force the opponent into a disadvantage, by your next move take the advantage. for example, attack opponent’s upper/lower body to make him open his lower/upper body guard, then easily attack there; etc.
tactic 19 of 36 - “repair the way in the open, cross the city in the dark (, )”: combine overt moves with a covert attack. for example, while your upper body overtly attacks or defends to distract the opponent, your lower body covertly attacks simultaneously or consequently, or vice versa.
tactic 20 of 36 - “besiege enemy capital to rescue friendly city ()”: combine overt moves with a covert defense. for example, while your upper body is defending against opponent’s attack, do an overt attack with your lower body to distract the opponent from his attack, or vice versa.
these involve multiple upper and lower limbs move simultaneously or consequently.
- history:
Qing dynasty (1644-1912):
in the early 1800s, monk Zhanju () created the ‘small sunny form’ (: chao yang quan, which means sunward style or morning sun) based on a combination of various other styles. he later improved the overall strategical level of the form and named it the ‘big sunny form’ (: zhao yang quan, which means bright sun, like the noon sun, which is brighter than the morning sun).
This is perfect and thanks for pointing out the section in the videos, helps us out TONS!! 
Amituofo!!
also on popularity of chao/zhao yang quan, i think of rarity you mean rarity of resources (mostly videos) in the internet and media. while this is somehow true about online videos, in the actual situation they are not rare. chao/zhao yang quan is actually as popular as, say, mei hua quan, chang hu xinyi men, taizu chang quan, and others. still not as popular as xiao hong and qixing quan, because these are simpler to learn and understand and hence more popular to the public. for serious students, they should master chao/zhao yang quan the same way they master xiao hong quan and qixing quan; not less, not more.
if people don’t talk much about chao/zhao yang quan, the reason is, being just about 200 years old, it’s much newer than other styles such as luohan quan and taizu chang quan, and doesn’t have all those historical ups and downs and is less subject to debate and discussion. however, the 20th century is still an ambiguous period for Shaolin temple and its martial arts and debates are not yet calmed down.
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1315596]also on popularity of chao/zhao yang quan, i think of rarity you mean rarity of resources (mostly videos) in the internet and media. while this is somehow true about online videos, in the actual situation they are not rare. chao/zhao yang quan is actually as popular as, say, mei hua quan, chang hu xinyi men, taizu chang quan, and others. still not as popular as xiao hong and qixing quan, because these are simpler to learn and understand and hence more popular to the public. for serious students, they should master chao/zhao yang quan the same way they master xiao hong quan and qixing quan; not less, not more.
if people don’t talk much about chao/zhao yang quan, the reason is, being just about 200 years old, it’s much newer than other styles such as luohan quan and taizu chang quan, and doesn’t have all those historical ups and downs and is less subject to debate and discussion. however, the 20th century is still an ambiguous period for Shaolin temple and its martial arts and debates are not yet calmed down.[/QUOTE]
interesting , I honestly hadn’t heard of Zhao Yang Quan until 2013, a brother of mine pointed it out online. I started researching it immediately and only found a few sentences here and there. soon after we found someone in the area who knew it well enough to share it.
The work you do is very important. Watching the Shi De Yang version is still enlightening to the fist, and the added insight below the videos give more room for deeper study into its principle.
Now that you mention it, I noticed the basic stances moving in Zhao Yang Quan immediately when I learned it. Until recently I didn’t realize how foundational the style is to Shaolin in terms of its expression, flow and direction. It speaks like the oldest forms, in my opinion, it retains the core mechanics like xiao hong and qi xing quan in such a way that if you drill it enough you will gain some inherent Shaolin “ba” or natural volition. Characteristically, its not too flashy or overtly direct in its applications so its still good for drilling into your memory even in fighting sense.
It has a lot of Buddha nature in it as well (like movements 22 thru 24), which correlate to the early Luohan style,…etc…in general, when practicing, I get the elder feeling from this form. It seems like an ancient one, even though its not that old.
It makes sense its a core fist style and I’d like to see its accessibility and visibility grow.
Amituofo
Amituofo
now the first question: “mizong quan”!
[QUOTE=Djuan;1313902]… first question, structural integrity of mizong quan, what is its root? how much of mizong quan if found in other Shaolin quan, and why so?
… also anyone else spotting similarities in Xinyi Mizongg Quan and QiXing Quan? anyone know the link there (if any) ?[/QUOTE]
the case of mizong quan is the epitome of what is called “MISUNDERSTANDINGS”, which is quite common in Shaolin culture.
the most common misunderstandings include:
- misnomers,
- irrelevant things with same or similar names,
- mixing modernly made-up concepts (from modern Wushu, newer styles of kung fu, kung fu movies, karate, taekwondo, etc.) into Shaolin kung fu,
- and so on.
the mizong quan case is a case of “different things with the same name”! my point is: this mizong quan is NOT that mizong quan!!
i explain this in the next comment below. it’s easy to understand, you get it.