[QUOTE=Bacon;1192081]You can control at the wrist but the best control in wing chun is always at the elbow.[/QUOTE]
Not the way he’s doing it.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1192147]Its not wise to charge in from outside the gate with elbows. You leave your self vunerable because the elbow is a short range weapon…The wing chun punch is longer…So charging in will take you a moment to get close enough to land one…especially if im agile an non-committed. In WC i learn you are relentless and aggressive but you dont fully committ to the point where you open or able to be controlled. Come in with elbows if you want to..i will simply deflect or redirect while flanking you an kicking your knees out from under you simultaneously…[/QUOTE]
Completely missing the point.
[QUOTE=SAAMAG;1192136]If you’re going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. If you’re going to control the body and head, you might as well throw them. If you throw them, you might as well hit them on the ground or otherwise control/submit/pin them.
In a real fight…the likely hood of being able to control someone completely the entire fight at the wrists and even the elbows is slim. In a real fight, your element of control will be constantly varied because both individuals will be vying for position and since WC works best in the clinch range it’s best to get familiar with things like neck control, hooks, and rising punches as well as your piston punching and and learning to adapt the 3 hand forms to help you transition and maintain varying clinch positions.[/QUOTE]
In a real fight, it only lasts seconds. You just need to completely dominate those seconds and destroy the opponent. You are not chasing hands while watching an entire episode of Tom and Jerry. You don’t have to do the entire set of Gangnam moves.
So then the way to dominate is by controlling their elbows? Is that what you’re saying?
[QUOTE=SAAMAG;1192136]If you’re going to control the elbow, you might as well control the body and head. [/QUOTE]
Even if you have controlled your opponent’s body or head, as long as his arms are still free, he can still counter you. To control your oponent’s elbow (or any part of his upper arm) is your “major control”. To control his body or head is your “minor control”. The major is always more important than the minor. Of course there are exceptions but it’s just a general guideline.
In combat when your opponent’s arm touches your arm, his arm touching will give you a certain safe feeling (because you know exactly where your opponent is). When your opponent tries not to touch you, he will give you more scary feeling (because you don’t know where he is, and you don’t know what he may do to you next). The bridge is a 2 edge sword. It’s better to use it along with your finish move (whether it a strike or a throw). The best way is the moment that you touch your opponent’s arm, the moment that you punch/throw him.
[QUOTE=SAAMAG;1192263]So then the way to dominate is by controlling their elbows? Is that what you’re saying?[/QUOTE]
Know your opponent’s “gates”; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro’s and con’s of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.
In general, I would not go straight for the opponent’s head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is “attack is my defense”, I don’t mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent’s ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.
While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1192290]Know your opponent’s “gates”; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro’s and con’s of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.
In general, I would not go straight for the opponent’s head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is “attack is my defense”, I don’t mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent’s ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.
While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree John.
If you’re going to go blasting in for head shots that’s a reall limited way to look at wing chun. Boxers would label you a headhunter, the difference being that boxing has more shots than WC to use this approach and that’s why WCers are shwn as one dimensional when they apply this.
WC is all about the bridge and controlling the opponent WHILST striking him, that’s its trick up its sleeve so to say… And IMO kicking is an important part of ths strategy.
My two bobs worth for the day
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1192290]Know your opponent’s “gates”; An over-generalizing view would be 1st-gate at the wrist, 2nd-gate at the elbow, 3rd-gate at the shoulder (depends also on angles of entry, inside door outside door etc). Know the pro’s and con’s of each gate, and know how to use them, when to use them, and how to move along them.
In general, I would not go straight for the opponent’s head/neck UNLESS I am collecting his gates along the way; the distance my fist has to travel to reach his head is double the distance for me to reach his elbow, which takes double the time. If the opponent is skilled, he can capitalize on that extra space and time to counter my move. Although my motto is “attack is my defense”, I don’t mean to do it blindly; I have to destroy the opponent’s ability to fight back as I entre. And the clip that Yoshi posted, was showing a lot of holes.
While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.[/QUOTE]
That was a great post actually. The idea of controlling their gates as you enter is a given if you’re advancing from distance to clinch to ground, and thats essetially what I’m saying. Added to that–the notion that you’re not going to control someone an entire fight by their limbs, assuming he fight is with someone of about the same skill.
If you’re fighting some joe blow it might end after the first blow, but if not one has to move and transition either into closer ranges or maintain distance and control the fight with positioning and striking. If you just hang out in the pocket–unless you’re Floyd Mayweather–you’re going to take a lot of damage as you’ll be in range for every single weapon they have.
That said–you guys should watch some of Jack Johnson and Willie Pep fights. I was turned onto these older aged boxers because of their use of clinch work and very CMA-like bridge work to maintain defense.
[QUOTE=SAAMAG;1192330]That was a great post actually. The idea of controlling their gates as you enter is a given if you’re advancing from distance to clinch to ground, and thats essetially what I’m saying. Added to that–the notion that you’re not going to control someone an entire fight by their limbs, assuming he fight is with someone of about the same skill.
If you’re fighting some joe blow it might end after the first blow, but if not one has to move and transition either into closer ranges or maintain distance and control the fight with positioning and striking. If you just hang out in the pocket–unless you’re Floyd Mayweather–you’re going to take a lot of damage as you’ll be in range for every single weapon they have.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, the idea that you can dominate in close (using WC) without controlling bridges and hopefully the opponents COG just doesn’t work against a stylist such as a boxer
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1192290]While Bacon is correct in pointing out my over-generalization that you cannot control someone at the first-gate, I much prefer if we are controlling at least the 2nd and/or the 3rd-gates. And of course, we are smashing the sh!ts out of the opponent while controlling these gates.[/QUOTE]
Controlling the first gate at the wrist can provide you with an instant of leverage to move in closer protected and feed towards controlling the second gate. The window of opportunity at the wrist is smaller than the elbow or shoulder though.
I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory…very good…
Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist…in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily…some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily…But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist…i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking…My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so…Not with the intent to grab his wrist…but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him!
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1192729]I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory…very good…
Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist…in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily…some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily…But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist…i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking…My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so…Not with the intent to grab his wrist…but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him![/QUOTE]
If you go in with intent to do this or that you will be chasing a trap when you should let it go and chasing hands when you should not. The goal should be to hit him. Anything else is only how to get there and if the current road has too many potholes.. Switch!
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1192729]I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory…very good…
Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist…in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily…some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily…But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist…i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking…My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so…Not with the intent to grab his wrist…but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him![/QUOTE]
My single purpose is to attack; collecting the gates are collateral damage. Force your opponent to deal with you, make him play your game.
Chase the opponent’s bridge and you will always be a step behind.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1192729]I love how this conversation as went on to gate theory…very good…
Yep, I never go into sparring thinking im going to control his elbow or shoulder or wrist…in reality its all about what works and what i can get away with. Some people are extremely skilled an will not offer their elbow as easily…some people have holes in their defenses allow capture of the elbow easily…But i never go in with then attention to grab his elbow or wrist…i simply Gum Sau or Lan Sau or Lop or Jut what ever is available at the time while striking…My mindset is i want to lock him up for a split second while i start intitating my link punches. If his hands are free to hook or jab then Im open for counter attack. i want to limit his options an protect my centerline in the process. If using his wrist to throw him off balance or damage his structure is my best option i do so…Not with the intent to grab his wrist…but with the flow of what he avails to me. If he gives me his wrist i use it against him![/QUOTE]
You think to much. hit him and if something gets in the way, remove/control and hit him again
I dont think people understand what im saying…
Im not saying approach the bloke with hands up trying to look for a trap…im saying the same thing your saying im just skipping to part dealing with the bridge work…
Theory: Attack Relentless, Control Aggressively, Flow continously…
You should always be attacking and sticking close to opponent…If your goal is to stay close to him he will strike defenseviely or he will retreat or side step. In all cases your always attacking and advancing upon him trying to maintain contact or a occupy space where theres a bridge. Its not about putting you hands out to touch his guards or trying to grab his hands to do some chin na move…
Nope its all about attacking or moving obstructions. If he has his guards up to face i attack his guards an his face simultaneously…Not chasing hands. If he punches, i intercept his punch while striking.
The first thing you do is ATTACK…When you attack relentlessly you keep close to him stick to him everywhere he goes your right infront of him not letting him go…When you control basically you flow from techique to technique causing him to be off balance, loss of structure or destroy his bridge by pressing in to him while hitting. Kinda like an ole school fight in the streets when someone pulls the other guy shirt over his head an starts hitting him when he cant be hit back…the entire time he was attacking..an when an opening presented itself he took advantage thus protecting his centerline by destroying his opponents structure an ability to fight back…If you have no control or flow attacking wont work unless you can get off a one hitter quitter!