Xiao/Da Hong Quan...the only fist forms practiced after Revolution

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

@ Eugene

My version is not from Yong Wen. And no it is nothing like guosong. Really there is nowhere on line you can see a version even close to as detailed as my masters version.

@LFJ

  1. I agree, that version is a little awkward. Try turning of the rear foot of gong bu and moving back towards the center, turning hands a little like in da hong quan after dan bian. You need it this way because this way the Panzhou/ xie xing sections face opposite directions and balance.

  2. Xiao Hong quan has MANY xu bu’s… They are also transitional, and dependant on personal body structure. The first move after yun ding is a turn to xu bu, then into tui zhang. It can be done in many different ways depending on intended application, but this is the way it starts in my version. Qixing is a continuous push and can stop in gong bu, or it can move through ding bu and into XU BU, it can even continue into the next gong bu. In some versions of Da hong quan since it is considered larger frame, qixing is done as xu bu (left foor foreward, right hand foreward). YOu will notice it is referred to as ‘da qixing’ in the lyrics instead of ‘xiao qi xing’ in XHQ. This is the meaning. Plus may others.

  3. Yes XHQ should contain rou quan like shenfa and bu fa in places.

  4. Tui Zhang is an interesting thing. Notice how the first TuiZhang is done from a high stance, with the hand prepared high (yun ding), the second TuiZhang is done from ShouRen, the lowest, smallest stance. Beautiful structure. These techniques cannot possibly be done the same way, one is from low, one from high. They are the same technique, yet done in a different frame, a different move in my form. As are later ones. The beauty of Tui zhang is somewhat spoiled in Laojia. The hook hand moving through is a specific technique. The more important aspect of tuizhang is not thinking of it as just a palm strike, but as placing the palm in the centerline of the body, as the standard guarding hand. The meanings of tui zhang are too many, but the hand guarding the centre is paramount. This is not so clear in laojia.

Regarding complexity and transitional stances; If we really split it up the sequence between the two xie xing stances; This is normally done as 3 stances, after xie xing its shou ren, kick, xie xing, right? In my version there are 9 stances in between the end of xie xing and the formation of the second xie xing. Of course it can be smoothed out, but if you don’t know the transitional elements you a losing the better part of the form.

The complexity is added depending on the person doing the form, and how well they understand the technique. On the outset Laojia is no more or less complex, it is almost the same, but with a couple of extra moves at the beginning (which i think spoils the symmetry). The laojia form is certainly less profound. And contains more unusual versions of techniques and stances suggesting it is from a certain family style rather than Zhenchuan.

Regarding History;

My chinese is good on some domains, and less accurate in others. Historical terms is not a strong point. I have heard the history of Xiaohong from several older masters now, all put it in song di. My current master has given me the best story (especially regarding its formation) i have heard yet, but there will be holes in my translation and i don’t want to misrepresent it. So until i can get a good translation of exactly what he said i hesitate to repeat it. Never the less they all say it dates back to song. Yuan is right after song though right?

22

@RenDaHai,

Do you follow the lyrics of the Main Xiao Hong Quan, I believe the 54 postures ?
You also say that there are alot of Xubu`s in there, ( these are empty stances right )http://www.kungfufever.com/shaolin/stances/shaolin_statue_04.jpg

Just wondering because i think i havent seen a xubu in xiao hong so far, maybe i overlooked some videos i am not sure. But If a form is based on one technique, i guess you can put everything in it in a way :slight_smile:

23

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;999151]@ Eugene

The first move after yun ding is a turn to xu bu, then into tui zhang.[/QUOTE]

this is the same for me.

24

here is a old thread where Mr. Sal shows a rear Xiao Hong lyric,

I really have to make some progress on my chinese haha

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43738&highlight=Xiao+Hong+Quan

25

gene also has a link in that thread to a xiaohong lyric thread

26

Yeah, these lyrics are good,

However you need to understand that for example ‘shang bu tui zhang’ step foreward push palm, is ambiguous in the lyrics.

Simply stepping foreward has too many applications to be mentioned, and can contain a great deal of intermediate stances to teach these lessons.

Xu bu is sometimes a solid stance but also sometimes an intermediate step.

And as i say, you could do seven stars in xu bu and it would still be absolutely correct.

No, most videos don’t show this, as usually they do all tui zhangs the same with the same intermediate, often lifting the knee. Again a great technique, but there are many more variations.

27

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;999151]Xiao Hong quan has MANY xu bu’s… They are also transitional, and dependant on personal body structure.[/quote]

i was actually talking about solid xubu in the set. it appears in laojia hongquan as not just a transitional step, but not in xiaohongquan.

yes, a lot happened during the overlap between song and yuan dynasties.

did the history of the set not have anything to do with li sou creating the matching da and xiao hongquan sets at least? was it something different altogether?

the history stories are what i’m interested in here, because something being more profound and symmetrical is somewhat a matter of preference and doesnt indicate a time frame for development.

anyway, we discussed various hongquan in detail elsewhere on the boards here. this is what sal canzonieri had to say regarding laojia hongquan:

by the way, rendahai, may i ask who is your current master? and your nine stance transition between the two xiexing sounds interesting. is it possible to explain?

28

@LFJ

Yes in my form, the first xu bu is solid. And I am well aquainted with that of WuGuLun Pai (Dejian, WuNanFang), very different from my xiao hong, but contains several solid XuBus.

The history is quite different, I’ll try my best to get a good version for you, because this is important stuff.

Sal always has some great historical info, but i will make some comment; Wu Shan Lin was the master of Wu Gu Lun pai. He was related to master WuGuLun (guy with the moustache in the center of the mural, also named jiqin). WuShanLin Died in 1970. WuNanFang (Dejians kung fu brother) is WuShanLins grandson.

One of my teachers, yong wen, trained with Wushanlin before his death and trained in shaolin in the 50/60s and my current master (whose name i can’t reveal, you won’t have heard of him anyway) trained inside shaolin temple in the 70’s, and with shaolin masters in the 60’s. THe idea that shaolin was revived in the 80’s is nonsense. This stems from the story about jet li going there during the filming of the movie. Even then there was a huge amount of kung fu around the area and many students of the post war shaolin monks still alive. At the time shaolin was very poor, and most of the great teachers had died in the 70’s but certainly the remaining monks knew stuff, they probably just didn’t want to show it. ANyway the point is this, shaolin was practiced continuosly.

The 60’s were a troubled time for china, my master tells me one of his masters starved to death. Because most people had no food, no one wanted to train kung fu. He said then it was easy to learn good kung fu, because all the teachers wanted to pass the knowledge on, but few people would practice. SO if you were someone who wanted to learn you were guaranteed a good teacher.

Shaolin was very much alive all through chinas troubled century. It wasn’t passed on to huge crowds of people and kung fu schools. Each master had just a few disciples. ANd those who know these skills have only a few disciples themselves, none of them teach in schools. This adds to the illusion that the best shaolin is lost. But it is just as alive as it ever has been. Its just hidden. As a foreigner YOu will have to make a severe commitment to learn any. Even at the height of the temple the real kung fu knowledge was not passed on to all.

Moving on, Wushanlin actually came to shaolin in the 30’s to bring back the kung fu after the temple burnt down, not the 80’s (he was already long dead). And there was already a great deal still there, but Wushanlin’s lineage had left the temple back in the 1800’s. So when we see Wugulun Pai forms, we know they are from this earlier time. And when we see how similar some of their forms are, we can see how little the forms have varied over that time. Its a good measure. ALthough many of wugulun pais forms are different, all the classic ones are present. Just their shen fa is very different.

YOu have to understand some important things. To the old masters, Taolu are utterly worthless. THeir kung fu was on a different level. When wushanlin taught in shaolin he would have taught ‘wushu’ correctly, but he would not have revealed the internal training. SO often the forms we have in shaolin are correct, in shape. The teachers would not have deliberatly taught incomplete forms, when to them the forms were worthless anyway. Most people don’t understand the principles of wushu and so cannot apply techniques in the form. But the internal aspect is not taught openly and most don’t know. All the qigong you see in the shows are either simple tricks, or are results of conditioning the body through repeated injury. THis is not real qi gong.

On to my xiao hong quan, I can’t list the moves openly on the forum, sorry.

My Point; There was a Lot of shaolin practiced inside shaolin in the 50, 60 and 70’s. The revival in the 80’s was not a time when they tried to rediscover shaolin. SHaolin was already present, it was just a time when there was money available and people could train again. SHaolin is and always has been practiced there, NONE IS LOST. The thing is all you see now a days is that twisted by the large schools.

29

@RenDaHai,

Would the old masters pay more time to internal kung fu then external kung fu ?

30

rendahai,

we’re talking about the history of li sou’s da/xiaohongquan, as currently held by shaolin, and specifically the laojia hongquan set.

no one said there wasnt a lot practiced in shaolin all throughout the last century. thats obvious. anyway, we’re talking specifically about the history of laojia hongquan vs xiaohongquan.

awaiting your new history story.

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;999866]my current master (whose name i can’t reveal, you won’t have heard of him anyway)…

…On to my xiao hong quan, I can’t list the moves openly on the forum, sorry.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: okay

31

Yeah,

Sorry for the rant guys, and being mysterious, my bad! :slight_smile:

Its kind of in theme with the thread though you see, lots of people think there was this void during the cultural revolution where no kung fu was practiced, so they say stuff like only xiao/da hong quan were practiced. I want to dispel this rumor as it leads people to judge current shaolin. Guess i don’t need to lay it out for people on this forum though.

I’ll get the history as I can; HOwever it will still not solve the Laojia problem… specifically it doesn’t list the exact moves of xiaohong quan so…

The only way we can ascertain which is the older version is by analysing the form itself.

This can be done;

If we take any move, such as shu shen: This one move is an entire form of footwork in itself which apears in many shaolin forms. However it is an absolutely neccessary part of this footwork that one leg is left ‘free’, ‘weightless’. In the classic xiao hong quan this is the case, in laojia both legs bear the weight together and clumsily. It is my opinion that this is from some specific family style rather than the correct lineage. Same goes for the hands in this form, spreading the wings as in laojia is a more specific use. The hands closing the body is more general, and can also be referreded to as shrinking the body, even when done in gong bu. Some versions of laojia use the correct hand posture, but wit different emphasis.

I can go into detail on why the leg needs to be free, or the hand positioning, but i think it is uneccessary… A similar analysis can be performed on every move in the form and comparison to other sets to show that the classic xiaohong quan is more likely to be the older.

Knowing the history won’t help us choose… More to come on it soon though.

P.s @eugene, Yes the older masters would have spent the vast majority of their training on internal aspects.

32

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1000111]Sorry for the rant guys, and being mysterious, my bad! :)[/quote]

i was just giving you a hard time. :slight_smile:

A similar analysis can be performed on every move in the form and comparison to other sets to show that the classic xiaohong quan is more likely to be the older.

it is also possible that the similarity comes from xiaohongquan taking the place of laojia hongquan, and following that, other sets conformed to the methods of xiaohongquan as being the standard and mother of other sets.

xiaohongquan is so played with now. you see it done slowly like rouquan. you see it done in the very low frame. you see it done in small frame as ven. shi dejian, wu nanfang, and others do it now.

i dont think this comes from years of development, but simply from people trying it with different elements, because its such an open form. most masters dont care if you change newer sets, because they are not very old anyway.

anyway, if laojia hongquan is not the matching set (dahongquan) but a later expansion of xiaohongquan, where did it come from? why does it have an entire first section before the xiaohongquan routine starts?

i have noticed portions of that first section also appear in other older shaolin sets, such as meihuaquan, which was developed around the same time (song dynasty) and abbreviated into xiaomeihuaquan in the yuan dynasty- same time that these xiao/dahongquan sets come from. but now, the section only exists in the old frame, laojia hongquan.

Knowing the history won’t help us choose… More to come on it soon though.

not only the history is important, but that in conjunction with tracking where it is and has been practiced, by whom, and what else they have in their training.

33

Hmm

I expect forms as old as these have been in a constant state of evolution, it could be that xiao hong and lao jia both spring from one common ancestor, much like humans and chimps… Never the less i would attest to xiao hong being the greater form. At the least we can say it hasn’t changed since the painting of the mural of shaolin (because wugulun pai’s xiao hong is the same in all but shenfa). And is much more widely practiced than lao jia. The only places i have seen lao jia practiced here in dengfeng they refer to it as Da hong quan, because it is simply xiao hong but with larger frame movements. It could be that these were created simultaneously as da xiao hong quan i suppose. I was of the opinion that Li sou created Da hong quan, not xiao hong quan, and that the forms were not so closely related. That xiao hong was the older form.

As to the beginning meihua section…I am a little skeptical as to the Meihua men forms… Meihua in early shaolin seems to be a completely different skill set,… I have some suspicion as to the origin of the current meihua forms. Need to investigate that further. I know we have some historical info, but it doesn’t relate to the actual movements. I would like to see some more meihua forms…

I have several histories from different teachers, but they are by way of oral tradition, i suspect Sal’s research may be more accurate.

The reason i really liked the history by my current master is that he made a real narrative story out of it, with different characters and quotes and so forth. It is this that i can’t translate… Still roughly the history paralells that of taizu chang quan. To say that Xiao hong quan is ‘mu quan’, one refined from many. From a meeting of 18 men pai, refining the technique from 18 styles into one form. THis is in the time of zhao kuang yin.

The whole part of this era, Taizu quan etc is very complicated…and mixed up, and so many styles like to put their origin at the meeting of the 18 styles…Can’t really say for sure. But I can at the least assure you that it is the opinion of a lot of old masters that Xiao hong quan is the most important shaolin skill set. And that it is possible to derive other sets like tongbei and pao quan from xiao hong quan alone.

By the way;

As to Taizu chang quan you will be pleased to know I am in contact with Liu Hui Zhen (liuzhenhai’s son). If you remember we had some suspicions about his ‘xiao tongbei’ and its relationship to shaolin taizu quan and possibly Da Tong bei quan. He’s out of town for the next month, but when hes back I should prepare some questions for him.

Also did you know that shaolin Da tong bei has 6 forms?! New info to me… Have you seen any of the others?

34

@RenDaHai,

I am a little cunfused, because a lot of storys and videos I read and see involve enormus hard practice for hours and hours on a day, in the morning, midday and evening.

for example,

A piece of a story from master Zhu Tian Xi, wich you guys know already maybe.

It takes more than twenty minutes to finishing practicing the twenty-four Lu Tan Tui entirely, and it has to be with a certain physical strength. When finishing the practicing ten rounds Tan Tui, one is already sweltering profusely. Some even cried for not being able to finish the practice completely. Teaching Kungfu for nearly forty years, I have never seen a person who can finish practicing twenty rounds successfully in one breath except one of my Shidi (male formally apprenticed after another to a master worker to learn a skill). My Shidi was dripping with perspiration from practicing twenty rounds Kung-fu, all of his clothes was soaked with sweat. Clothes off, his sweat was splashing down

He had to do each round of Tan Tui 20 times, and at the end doing about 1000 movements also in the story, it make me thing i had to also practice for hours and hours…

And afcourse, my first movie that I saw was the 36th Chambers of Shaolin, wich involvles also alot of physical training, so I was always focussed alot on the hard parts, not that I am any good at it..

And the Shaolin Songshan training at WushuGuan on You Tube. ( I guess the top is to take a bull down ! )

Maybe 10 % is external and 90 internal ?

And Xiao Hong Quan is like this 10 % in postures and perfect shape, but 90 % is missing if internal ways are not in it maybe ?

A link to the website, that begins on page one :slight_smile:
http://shaolinrevelations.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=7

35

@Eugene

Off course training must be hard!

Although you can train internally from the begining the external moves must also be mastered. The old masters off course trained hard like this, but in their old age, when their basics were mastered they did not continue with this level of external training. This is just at the begining.

But internal training is even more difficult;

Try standing in Gong bu for 2 hours without flinching, all the while not listening to the pain in your body and searching for the void between thoughts… My master had a disciple who stood in gong bu tui zhang for 21 hours… That is harder than 20 full rounds of tan tui. This is some of the internal training.

Or meditating for 3 days straight, without losing posture or focus. I would rather practice 20 rounds of tan tui than to meditate for 3 days anytime.

36

21 hours in Gong Bu Tui Zhang…that is some training, very interesting. Internal training is much harder to see it like that you describe.

Its unbelieveble in some ways, somehow i get the idea that to understand Xiao Hong Quan, and do it according to all above, it takes more then 10 years…

I watched a Wugulun Xiao today, and saw 3 Xubu`s in it, I havent seen much of wugulun, i dont understand it at all.

37

It takes a long time certainly, but there are no definate times, it depends how well you train.

Wugulun Xiao hong quan is very good. It is difficult to understand the body mechanics (shen fa) at first, but it is a very good skill.

Try doing a move, say an uppercut. Do the move without moving your body, just your arm, see what it feels like?

Now do the same move but don’t move your arm at all, only move your body. Try and get the same range of movement. This way the arm still moves, and does so with even more weight behind it. Its a simple example but this might help you understand why Wugulun pai move the way they do. In reality it is a combination of both movements and there is a lot more to it than that, but its a start.

38

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1000141]At the least we can say it hasn’t changed since the painting of the mural of shaolin (because wugulun pai’s xiao hong is the same in all but shenfa).[/quote]

same as what? i see them nowadays doing it several different ways, all with the same small frame shenfa, but they seem to be moving free-form. each person seems to have their own way. and not only that, but i’ve seen some of them do completely different techniques added in that dont appear in others’.

I was of the opinion that Li sou created Da hong quan, not xiao hong quan, and that the forms were not so closely related. That xiao hong was the older form.

you mean dahongquan as in laojia hongquan, created by li sou in late song/early yuan dynasty, much later than xiaohongquan as an amalgamation of styles from early song dynasty?

As to the beginning meihua section…I am a little skeptical as to the Meihua men forms… Meihua in early shaolin seems to be a completely different skill set,… I have some suspicion as to the origin of the current meihua forms. Need to investigate that further. I know we have some historical info, but it doesn’t relate to the actual movements. I would like to see some more meihua forms…

well, the xiaomeihuaquan/ditangmeihuaquan is an abbreviated version of the original meihuaquan set. whereas the dameihuaquan was created fairly recently. i’m not sure how closely related all its weapon sets are to the early meihuaquan.

but the xiao/ditang meihuaquan has an opening sequence which is done in datongbiquan and others. it starts from the xubu following the gongbu danbian at the beginning datongbiquan, all the way up to the mabu one-two punch.

then the ending sequence of this meihua set is the opening sequence to laojia hongquan, which then flows into classic xiaohongquan.

As to Taizu chang quan you will be pleased to know I am in contact with Liu Hui Zhen (liuzhenhai’s son). If you remember we had some suspicions about his ‘xiao tongbei’ and its relationship to shaolin taizu quan and possibly Da Tong bei quan. He’s out of town for the next month, but when hes back I should prepare some questions for him.

yes, particularly the lyrics for one of his xiaotongbiquan sets match up with the lyrics to the second road of taizu changquan, a supposedly lost form, as it is listed in the shaolin encyclopedia. maybe bring that up.

i havent seen other datongbiquan sets, but i’ve heard of there being more, and felt there naturally should be more to it. that question is probably also related to those mysterious xiaotongbiquan sets. they’re all connected somehow…

39

@RenDaHai,

Ik took me some days, but I have a very small idea now, about the movements of wugulun, i tried what you said.
I am wondering if one knows 2 kinds of * shen fa * in your words, they dont get mixed up in a set ?