[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;717992]Mr. Punch, I can see by your words in most of your posts that you are not well versed in Wing Chun. [/quote]Ha ha ha!
Very droll… but unless you point out the error of my ways it’s a rather empty accusation. So go on, go back to some threads which you think demonstrate this and show us!
As for your following comments on chi sao, fair enough: I don’t remember defending its practical use in a fight - you’re just going off on a rant on your preconceived ideas of what you think I think. Keep going!
However, I’ll see what your response to Jeff Bussey’s post is to see if you’re mature enough to actually discuss the applications of chi sao in a fight, or if you’re just going to keep second-guessing instead of reading what people actually write.
My sifu always teaches that hand speed is an illusion. Granted there are those who have quicker reflexes, but in VT, the illusion is created by proper stance and hand technique. Historically, ving tsun was refered to as “Invisible Hands” but this is mainly due to the lack of knowledge of centerline theory at that time. If you are occupying the center and your stance is correct an opponent’s hand speed should not matter. wingchunguy2 touched upon a related point in saying that the angle of your bridge and hand structure play an important role, which translates simply to proper hand techniques.
I have to disagree with those who say sensitivity stops once contact is lost. Jeff Bussey mentioned above about losing contact during chi sao and chi sao’ing at greater distances. This is something that we always practice in my family. Those who have progressed far enough in chi sao move into chi sao’ing with only the hands as bridges, and then prgress to the tips of the fingers, and finally to a more sparring-like situation of no initial contact. We often practice these forms of chi sao in a one-technique setting, where it is touch, go, and over within only a few seconds. If two students are evenly matched and agree to, they may initiate normal chi sao if no strikes are landed in the initial moves.
Outside of the practice itself, we all have many forms of non-touch based sensitivity. They fall under various forms of animal communication including verbal and non verbal. Communicating by talking is the most common and obvious form which allows us to read our opponent’s intentions and mood. And of course there is non-verbal comunication commonly referred to as body language. Seeing the opponent’s stance, hand position, and even eye activity is a huge factor in reading their intentions. I do agree that chi sao is a drill, an excercise, but you can take said excercise and stretch it to apply further than its basic use.
I have to disagree with those who say sensitivity stops once contact is lost.
We were talking about touch sensitivity, which by definition requires contact.
I would agree there is also sensitivity to the loss of contact, and other forms of sensitivity. But in the latter case, chi sao is not as useful, if useful at all, as are other drills.
[QUOTE=anerlich;718329]We were talking about touch sensitivity, which by definition requires contact.[/QUOTE]
I think you missed the point. My disagreement was with those who state that bridge contact is the end all of sensitivity training. Haven’t you or your chi sao partner ever pushed off without actually scoring? That loss of contact does not mean that chi sao is over. It means that the two students need to find their bridges again from a disconnected situation.
I think you missed the point. My disagreement was with those who state that bridge contact is the end all of sensitivity training.
I don’t think I missed any point. I went on to say what you just did, except that IMO chi sao is not the “end all” of sensitivity training either. If you want to quibble about definitions, I have better ways to waste my time.
Haven’t you or your chi sao partner ever pushed off without actually scoring? That loss of contact does not mean that chi sao is over. It means that the two students need to find their bridges again from a disconnected situation.
Grandmaster Yip encouraged Master Chow to blend in more sparring and defending techniques in the Chi Sao exercise saying that Lut Sao Kin Kung Fu (literally : the real kung fu is seen in free sparring). This means that the Wing Chun practitioner can check his own standard and progress in his training through his ability in free sparring practice
Hmmmm…seems like Grandmaster Yip placed alot of emphasis on sparring, hence we have fighters from that time like Masters Hawkins, William, Wong Shun leung, Chow Tze Chuen, Bruce Lee etc…
Now some lineages place emphasis on chi sao, and chi sao, as my sifu always tells me, is not fighting, its a way to learn sensitivity.
Wonder if the WSL lineage emphasis more on fighting or chi sao.
Hey does anyone know if this Lut Sao, means loose hands? I speak cantonese and that is how I would read it. Lut Sao Jik Chung.
Chi sao, known in wingchun requires contact. Then again, Hendrik made some profound points. But at my level, Sensitivity may come in many forms, but we are talking about chi sao.
I dont see how speed is an illusion. Fast punch or kick hit face, hands couldnt deflect it, that cant be illusional. Ouch…
Hmmm…I didnt know about this. Which lineage called wingchun invisible hands and had a lack of centreline theory?
If you are occupying the center and your stance is correct an opponent’s hand speed should not matter. wingchunguy2 touched upon a related point in saying that the angle of your bridge and hand structure play an important role, which translates simply to proper hand techniques.
I think we all train to occupy the centreline and have the correct structure and the right hand technique. We are still talking about wingchun right? Does that mean you will not get hit by a faster strike? Hmmmmm…still need some discussion.
QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;717345]I have been training in wingchun for a few years now, and I find whenever I meet someone with great hand speed, the sensitivity I have in chi sao, doesnt really work. Well at least for me.
—are you talking about being in contact here? At beginner level chi sao should be more about you and where you are at, than about training partners and what they can do. Your sifu should be concentrating on your proprioception and the automaticity of wing chun movement.
I find when I pivot to receive, my body moves slower than the attacking hand, or when I move my hand to redirect the force, its just not fast enough.
—are you doing chi sao here? Because if you are then sensitivity can play a part. There are a few of levels of sensitivity for example tactile, structural, visual etc.
My malaysian sifu says, when your hand cannot save you, use your body to save.
Is sensitivity really enough?
—no, it is part of a multilateral base.
If you hands move slower to deflect or redirect, what good is sensitivity?
—Not sure what you’re after here, your question is somewhat rhetorical. It is no good to you, if they are fast and can hit hard, which is not always the case, you will be hurt and sensitivity is no good, assuming you are talking tactile sensitivity, other sensitivities would be most helpful but not all can be trained with chi sao.
We cant block or redirect the hand in time. Or if he doesnt play the chi sao game, he strikes without engaging, what good is sensitivity then?
—as above
hi all, when , in chi sua postion what i would , try and do is, if i get someone with, a fast pak sua, try using the forward , jamming bong sua with footwork this maybe what you sifu said use the body as well , also the moment , you feel, forward pressure , not just being senative . as you will learn correct feeling, is important. trainn slow poon sau then train slow poon sau with footwork, footwork forward pressure correct hand postion don"t worry about his speed worry about how your defence postion is peace russellsherry