Wing chun to Sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=WC1277;1238677]How do you walk? What are the mechanics behind that? Why does the opposite arm always swing forward? Push something, anything, with one arm on your center. What feels stronger with less muscle, same side foot or opposite? How do you move sideways Kevin? You step to the side. See you guys are missing the big picture. For the body to move in unison naturally the hands matter as much as the legs and move as one together. What many do here is lock the bottom part af the structure and yes, get “twisted out” with incoming force. Stances, footwork, all that jazz is just for developmental, it’s not the end game. The end game quite literally is natural movement. Don’t know what else to say really…[/QUOTE]

Because you don’t know what you’re doing ; ) the big picture you see is only the circle of that sky from the depth of your well. Ribbitt.

22

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1238664]As a very very general statement on stance, a one leg in front stance is more exposed to takedowns. The deeper the stance, the more exposed. The shallower stances (JP our leung yi ma) are better naturally protected from takedowns.[/QUOTE]

Our thinking too and low kick.

23

Though there are some definitions missing, TWC as taught by William Cheung makes extensive use of the side neutral stance, which I am assuming is different from a “side stance” where you stand laterally to the opponent. Though that sort of stance is used effectively too by some competent JKD practitioners of my experience, and St Bruce employed it as well.

The advantages of the “side neutral” stance are the ability to rapidly switch sides and attack from either side. The weakness, according to my instructor’s opinions and my own observations of many sparring matches and tournament KF matches, is that most people end up either stepping back into a more frontal, bow and arrow type stance stance under pressure, or getting driven backwards at a rate of knots. I wouldn’t say this applies to all practitioners, but it is a common observation. I tend to use more of a front stance, though I have also extensively practised sprawls and other takedown defence.

This doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with WC1277, and particularly his attitude.

24

[QUOTE=anerlich;1238727]

This doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with WC1277, and particularly his attitude.[/QUOTE]

I’m usually nicer! :wink:

It’s just one of those days…

25

[QUOTE=anerlich;1238727]

This doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with WC1277, and particularly his attitude.[/QUOTE]

I am correct though. Watch any PB/WSL video where you can see their legs(or partial) and I guarantee you 90% of the time that they get “twisted out”(my own term for losing facing) their lead arm, or the arm that gets controlled causing to lose face, is the same side as their lead foot.

26

[QUOTE=WC1277;1238734]I am correct though. Watch any PB/WSL video where you can see their legs(or partial) and I guarantee you 90% of the time that they get “twisted out”(my own term for losing facing) their lead arm, or the arm that gets controlled causing to lose face, is the same side as their lead foot.[/QUOTE]

Too funny and ironic really.

27

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1238736]Too funny and ironic really.[/QUOTE]

…but true. Is that observation not correct? …or is it just coincidence to you?

28

[QUOTE=WC1277;1238737]…but true. Is that observation not correct? …or is it just coincidence to you?[/QUOTE]

Wc1277 ( if that is your name ) you are confused about a lot of things.

29

I’m usually nicer!

Can’t say I’ve noticed, but OK.

30

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1238744]Wc1277 ( if that is your name ) you are confused about a lot of things.[/QUOTE]

Whatever man! You know I’m right. I wish some others on this forum would notice the same with regards to footwork in the “side stance” of “ving tsun”. You gotta have the eye for it but it’s there and obvious IMO

31

This is my take on things with stance I have to “Side” with Kevin here:). I myself use side facing stance ive shown my students this stance They have found it very practical,in its use when contact is broken and the need to re engage opponent . As for the one leg in front which is a nonsense ive seen time and time again in a alot of you tube videos which is a Joke:D

Sigung Wsl leung Stated Once the lead leg is out you have lost a step. I can only speck from my own experience in Gwoh Sao and Sparring

I wanted too illustrate the point I was writing on my mobile about two weeks ago about a particular vid and the post got lost darn:mad: So iam ecstatic. You’ve brought the subject up One step in front your very vulnerable to a takedown that’s why so many Wc people get there ar$$ served to them :frowning:

This the vid i wanted to point out as you see lead leg is awkward in Stability I find once in side facing i can shift my horse either side and lunch a attack wither its a kick or just step which is very hard to detect which leg is going to kick or what ? Giving me clear advantage in Interception Heres clip I give him props for going out there and doing his thing Still!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKl9vp2PIyU

And http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4

32

[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1238759]This is my take on things with stance I have to “Side” with Kevin here:). I myself use side facing stance ive shown my students this stance They have found it very practical,in its use when contact is broken and the need to re engage opponent . As for the one leg in front which is a nonsense ive seen time and time again in a alot of you tube videos which is a Joke:D

Sigung Wsl leung Stated Once the lead leg is out you have lost a step. I can only speck from my own experience in Gwoh Sao and Sparring

I wanted too illustrate the point I was writing on my mobile about two weeks ago about a particular vid and the post got lost darn:mad: So iam ecstatic. You’ve brought the subject up One step in front your very vulnerable to a takedown that’s why so many Wc people get there ar$$ served to them :frowning:

This the vid i wanted to point out as you see lead leg is awkward in Stability I find once in side facing i can shift my horse either side and lunch a attack wither it’s a kick or just step which is very hard to detect which leg is going to kick or what ? Giving me clear advantage in Interception Here’s clip I give him props for going out there and doing his thing Still!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKl9vp2PIyU

And http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4[/QUOTE]

Not sure what your point is in arguing your case and then linking those vids to confirm your thoughts. I actually thought they proved otherwise

Ignoring the two guys in the street clip, the WC v Karate clip highlighted IMO effective kicking against the karate guy… he kicked him dozens of time, not to mention get the better of him in hand exchanges.

Ive done two styles of WC (mainland and TST) ,and the former advocates leg forward, i find there is pros and cons in both stances. I actually prefer the kicking from the leg forward

My two cents worth

33

[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1238759]This is my take on things with stance I have to “Side” with Kevin here:). I myself use side facing stance ive shown my students this stance They have found it very practical,in its use when contact is broken and the need to re engage opponent . As for the one leg in front which is a nonsense ive seen time and time again in a alot of you tube videos which is a Joke:D

Sigung Wsl leung Stated Once the lead leg is out you have lost a step. I can only speck from my own experience in Gwoh Sao and Sparring

I wanted too illustrate the point I was writing on my mobile about two weeks ago about a particular vid and the post got lost darn:mad: So iam ecstatic. You’ve brought the subject up One step in front your very vulnerable to a takedown that’s why so many Wc people get there ar$$ served to them :frowning:

This the vid i wanted to point out as you see lead leg is awkward in Stability I find once in side facing i can shift my horse either side and lunch a attack wither it’s a kick or just step which is very hard to detect which leg is going to kick or what ? Giving me clear advantage in Interception Here’s clip I give him props for going out there and doing his thing Still!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKl9vp2PIyU

And http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4[/QUOTE]

Like I said before, I don’t really care what it’s called in Kevin’s system. I’m looking at the big picture. They want to use “side facing”, fine. My entire point is that to have a “balanced structure” that doesn’t inhibit the ability to maintain facing one must move from “whatever” position to a new one that maintains that balance. It doesn’t have to be drastic but ‘balanced’ with either the force incoming or the force delivered. And ready for it… Opposite leg forward, no matter the “stance”(side facing included) to receiving/delivering arm.

In my book and I’m assuming most guys with a decent understanding of both fighting and body mechanics would agree with me that force delivered or received on a structure that has a “lead” leg and “lead” arm on the same side is technically a SIDE STANCE!, if even for a snap shot in time. A huge no-no in WC with very few exceptions. PB crowds footwork not being one of them. And quite honestly, it’s self evident. It’s the number one reason IMO they get turned off of center as much as they do and is, in a way, a self fulfilling prophecy…

Try this experiment out. Just walk casually somwhere, anywhere. Notice the swing of your arms in relation to your steps? Now randomly pull a 40 degree turn or any angle for that matter. Do a few different angles then go back to walking straight. Strange how your arms still swing the same way isn’t it? Now try it with sinking your center of gravity and make your turns with the rotation on the heal. Arms still swinging opposite with just a little bit of a torque to them? Try going backwards. Now bring your arms up to the classic WC position. Feel a little off and vulnerable if you don’t allow your arms to rotate as you make your angles? Congratulations, you just learned a very basic concept called “bracing”! Try it out, play with it, I guarantee your WC will improve and the days of “losing face”(no pun intended;)) will go significantly down. Over time after becoming efficent in this footwork you can skip the rotation of the heels and one can actually look like a normal human being when fighting!

Bottom line: The structure in WC works as a unit and using this priciple will allow you to truly rotate your upper body “triangle” with incoming force and redirect while simultaneously hitting, or obtaining a better position to hit, all while maintaining facing. And when you do hit you will deliver much more force due to the balance of the structure.

On a side note, anyone ever think to consult the empty hand forms and dummy for this rather basic concept??? …just saying…

btw Jansingsang, I’m just being facetious with this topic, no hard feelings

34

[QUOTE=WC1277;1238761]Like I said before, I don’t really care what it’s called in Kevin’s system. I’m looking at the big picture. They want to use “side facing”, fine. My entire point is that to have a “balanced structure” that doesn’t inhibit the ability to maintain facing one must move from “whatever” position to a new one that maintains that balance. It doesn’t have to be drastic but ‘balanced’ with either the force incoming or the force delivered. And ready for it… Opposite leg forward, no matter the “stance”(side facing included) to receiving/delivering arm.

In my book and I’m assuming most guys with a decent understanding of both fighting and body mechanics would agree with me that force delivered or received on a structure that has a “lead” leg and “lead” arm on the same side is technically a SIDE STANCE!, if even for a snap shot in time. A huge no-no in WC with very few exceptions. PB crowds footwork not being one of them. And quite honestly, it’s self evident. It’s the number one reason IMO they get turned off of center as much as they do and is, in a way, a self fulfilling prophecy…

Try this experiment out. Just walk casually somwhere, anywhere. Notice the swing of your arms in relation to your steps? Now randomly pull a 40 degree turn or any angle for that matter. Do a few different angles then go back to walking straight. Strange how your arms still swing the same way isn’t it? Now try it with sinking your center of gravity and make your turns with the rotation on the heal. Arms still swinging opposite with just a little bit of a torque to them? Try going backwards. Now bring your arms up to the classic WC position. Feel a little off and vulnerable if you don’t allow your arms to rotate as you make your angles? Congratulations, you just learned a very basic concept called “bracing”! Try it out, play with it, I guarantee your WC will improve and the days of “losing face”(no pun intended;)) will go significantly down. Over time after becoming efficent in this footwork you can skip the rotation of the heels and one can actually look like a normal human being when fighting!

Bottom line: The structure in WC works as a unit and using this priciple will allow you to truly rotate your upper body “triangle” with incoming force and redirect while simultaneously hitting, or obtaining a better position to hit, all while maintaining facing. And when you do hit you will deliver much more force due to the balance of the structure.

On a side note, anyone ever think to consult the empty hand forms and dummy for this rather basic concept??? …just saying…

btw Jansingsang, I’m just being facetious with this topic, no hard feelings[/QUOTE]

None taken mate if that works for you fine:) Iam only giving my prospectus from what i know and do and what works for me, everyone’s gonna have there preference I put the video up only to illustrate what i was referring to nothing else to add at this moment in time :wink:

35

[QUOTE=anerlich;1238727]I tend to use more of a front stance, though I have also extensively practised sprawls and other takedown defence.
[/QUOTE]

One thing I’ve noticed recently that you can replicate just by looking in a mirror and shifting very slowly between the stances is that subtle changes in your stance facing can do certain things.

As I shift slowly towards a side stance, this pulls my major targets offline (chin, head, throat, body) from being able to be hit by my opponent without stepping. However, it also pulls one side of my striking tools offline where I can’t use them without stepping or a large motion either. I’m learning also I can cheat towards a stance in sparring just by changing shoulder alignment, then have the feet follow. This has been helpful when I’m jammed up and someone is flurrying on me.

HFY has a concept a little different in that the description of the stance is actually not the stance but the footwork to get you to the stance. JP referred to this. From my perspective this is geared to a little different way of viewing this. At first glance it may seem just semantics, but I like the idea. Where do I need to go? as opposed to where do I need to stand in a static position?

36

Wc1277 is confirming the intention of our attacks. To simultaneously strike and cause the opponents to lose facing. It’s a skill he has seen in action over and over.
This " twisting out " is on purpose. It means the student was unable to counter angle due to freezing under pressure and got shunted out of “facing”. Or lost balance being caught by a sudden attacking blitz. The side facing allows instant offside angling backwards so we can catch over zealous stepping or for e against the opponent in the same timing. Or attacking to varying shifts in an opponents positions as we engage them. No lead leg charges or bracing bs.

Weird but I showed this to a student of wc1277 lineage and he also had never heard of it. But when we exchanged ideas he agreed and could see how vt is trying to induce over rotation by adopting certain counter angles based on attacking entry. If you are trained to seek arm pressure you turn yourself as you reach for arms " playing you ". The dummy side shifting and pivoting back and forth in front of an opponent is the way to be able to move without commiting either leg to lead until angles and attacks are made.

Wc1277 what you have seen IS the intention. And you have seen it from probably the best at it in the world, PB. ; )

Let the opponent show you what angle to take, let them try to use human condition or hand control to chase your outstretched arms ; ) chi sao skills allow us to " cut through" and have the coordination to both evade our arms being touched , wrists grabbed , blocked , etc…and move and hit with force simultaneously.
If you approach chi sao with arm pressure wedging/feeling you will fall into this trap simply because you aren’t using chi sao to uncondition the human tendency.
Llhs lsjc.

37

[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1238759]This is my take on things with stance I have to “Side” with Kevin here:). I myself use side facing stance ive shown my students this stance They have found it very practical,in its use when contact is broken and the need to re engage opponent . As for the one leg in front which is a nonsense ive seen time and time again in a alot of you tube videos which is a Joke:D

Sigung Wsl leung Stated Once the lead leg is out you have lost a step. I can only speck from my own experience in Gwoh Sao and Sparring

I wanted too illustrate the point I was writing on my mobile about two weeks ago about a particular vid and the post got lost darn:mad: So iam ecstatic. You’ve brought the subject up One step in front your very vulnerable to a takedown that’s why so many Wc people get there ar$$ served to them :frowning:

This the vid i wanted to point out as you see lead leg is awkward in Stability I find once in side facing i can shift my horse either side and lunch a attack wither its a kick or just step which is very hard to detect which leg is going to kick or what ? Giving me clear advantage in Interception Heres clip I give him props for going out there and doing his thing Still!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKl9vp2PIyU

And http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4[/QUOTE]

Right idea plonker, ; ) the lead leg commits us to a line and we lose the " sudden " entry from angles presented.
We can counter angle and allow attacks that by equal lead leg positions, gives away the following hand. Iow we can adopt angles based on stances from opponents.
Boxers use pivoting similarly to how we make evasive counter angles. We do similar but with different foot work so we can kick as we angle without shifting balance and or losing balance as boxers can do when engaged in pivoting. Our angle stepping also attacks the ability of the boxers lead leg to move after a pivot, or simply step on their lead foot . Fighting southpaw boxing stances also needs same footwork patterns. Boxers fighting southpaws aka(lefty’s) need to also adjust how they pivot or they trip themselves up in a similar fashion to vt. We dont look for feet , but if you find them …: )

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1238797]Wc1277 is confirming the intention of our attacks. To simultaneously strike and cause the opponents to lose facing. It’s a skill he has seen in action over and over.
This " twisting out " is on purpose. It means the student was unable to counter angle due to freezing under pressure and got shunted out of “facing”. Or lost balance being caught by a sudden attacking blitz. The side facing allows instant offside angling backwards so we can catch over zealous stepping or for e against the opponent in the same timing. Or attacking to varying shifts in an opponents positions as we engage them. No lead leg charges or bracing bs.

Weird but I showed this to a student of wc1277 lineage and he also had never heard of it. But when we exchanged ideas he agreed and could see how vt is trying to induce over rotation by adopting certain counter angles based on attacking entry. If you are trained to seek arm pressure you turn yourself as you reach for arms " playing you ". The dummy side shifting and pivoting back and forth in front of an opponent is the way to be able to move without commiting either leg to lead until angles and attacks are made.

Wc1277 what you have seen IS the intention. And you have seen it from probably the best at it in the world, PB. ; )

Let the opponent show you what angle to take, let them try to use human condition or hand control to chase your outstretched arms ; ) chi sao skills allow us to " cut through" and have the coordination to both evade our arms being touched , wrists grabbed , blocked , etc…and move and hit with force simultaneously.
If you approach chi sao with arm pressure wedging/feeling you will fall into this trap simply because you aren’t using chi sao to uncondition the human tendency.
Llhs lsjc.[/QUOTE]

Wow! A strawman response at it’s finest!

Not only did you finally confirm my observation, you simply chalked it up to it’s the result of “the human condition”. Nevermind the fact your guys should be training to maintain facing regardless of the human condition. You also state it’s the result of good angling on the aggressors part. Like I said, a self fulfilling prophecy…

The simple fact is your guys are losing facing by a pretty basic footwork error. I offered a solution to it. I know it probably feels a little awkward right now(if you even tried it) but it’s accurate and true to the WC principles. After all, what is WC without the ability to maintain facing. Seems to me like the rest of the tenets of the system crumble without it, as evidenced by your boys… :wink:

39

[QUOTE=WC1277;1238837]Wow! A strawman response at it’s finest!

Not only did you finally confirm my observation, you simply chalked it up to it’s the result of “the human condition”. Nevermind the fact your guys should be training to maintain facing regardless of the human condition. You also state it’s the result of good angling on the aggressors part. Like I said, a self fulfilling prophecy…

The simple fact is your guys are losing facing by a pretty basic footwork error. I offered a solution to it. I know it probably feels a little awkward right now(if you even tried it) but it’s accurate and true to the WC principles. After all, what is WC without the ability to maintain facing. Seems to me like the rest of the tenets of the system crumble without it, as evidenced by your boys… ;)[/QUOTE]

You make me laugh ! Whatever dude.

40

[QUOTE=GlennR;1238760]Not sure what your point is in arguing your case and then linking those vids to confirm your thoughts. I actually thought they proved otherwise

Ignoring the two guys in the street clip, the WC v Karate clip highlighted IMO effective kicking against the karate guy… he kicked him dozens of time, not to mention get the better of him in hand exchanges.

QUOTE Ive done two styles of WC (mainland and TST) ,and the former advocates leg forward, i find there is pros and cons in both stances. I actually prefer the kicking from the leg forward

My two cents worth[/QUOTE]

Listen good i wasnt arguing nothing I dont give a rats ar$$ what they proved or disproved as the guy faired ok with kicking but balance wasnt all that, based
on stance placement

QUOTE Ive done two styles of WC (mainland and TST) ,and the former advocates leg forward, i find there is pros and cons in both stances. I actually prefer the kicking from the leg forward

Bully for you like i said Iam only giving my prospectus from what i know and do and what works for me. Everyone’s gonna have there preference!:rolleyes: