Wing Chun: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I think one of the reasons the “fighting” wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore. It’s not like in the 50’s when local schools would go on the rooftops for "friendly’ matches and tests of skill. People don’t train as hard because quite frankly…they don’t have to.

Couple that with all the inter-lineage fighting and you have a recipe for total degradation of the system in a few decades. I’m with Ultimate on the whole idea of forgetting all the BS that most of us debate and just move onto making each other better by bettering ourselves and then spreading the knowledge gained from real training.

I think I also read somewhere someone saying something to Ultimate about the person being more important then the style and then him contradicting it by saying he wanted wing chun to take it’s rightful place as a fighting art…my response to that is if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole because we’re each getting better ourselves. A good army starts with the individual.

Peace out…man this is an uuuuugly thread.

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Originally posted by Vankuen
[B]I think one of the reasons the “fighting” wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore. It’s not like in the 50’s when local schools would go on the rooftops for "friendly’ matches and tests of skill. People don’t train as hard because quite frankly…they don’t have to.

Couple that with all the inter-lineage fighting and you have a recipe for total degradation of the system in a few decades. I’m with Ultimate on the whole idea of forgetting all the BS that most of us debate and just move onto making each other better by bettering ourselves and then spreading the knowledge gained from real training.

I think I also read somewhere someone saying something to Ultimate about the person being more important then the style and then him contradicting it by saying he wanted wing chun to take it’s rightful place as a fighting art…my response to that is if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole because we’re each getting better ourselves. A good army starts with the individual.

Peace out…man this is an uuuuugly thread. [/B]

The instant we think our thought/idea /speculation is the most reasonable and correct. That is the begining of falling into a trap of political fighting. Because same with us, everyone will think thier idea is the most reasonable and correct.

until one learn to be able to get out from this trap. Life is tough.

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Originally posted by Vankuen
[B]I think one of the reasons the “fighting” wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore. It’s not like in the 50’s when local schools would go on the rooftops for "friendly’ matches and tests of skill. People don’t train as hard because quite frankly…they don’t have to.

Couple that with all the inter-lineage fighting and you have a recipe for total degradation of the system in a few decades. I’m with Ultimate on the whole idea of forgetting all the BS that most of us debate and just move onto making each other better by bettering ourselves and then spreading the knowledge gained from real training.

I think I also read somewhere someone saying something to Ultimate about the person being more important then the style and then him contradicting it by saying he wanted wing chun to take it’s rightful place as a fighting art…my response to that is if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole because we’re each getting better ourselves. A good army starts with the individual.

Peace out…man this is an uuuuugly thread. [/B]

The instant we think our----- thought/idea /speculation/Switching from one great idea to another great idea ----- is the most reasonable and correct.

That is the begining of falling into a trap of political fighting. Because same with us, everyone will think thier idea is the most reasonable and correct.

and how many of us human can differentiate between Observing then reporting the exist facts , and taking speculation/ believe/ thinking in one’s personal consciousness as the supreme REALITY of the world?

it always happen that, human pulling reverse gear and thinking that is forward.

just human characteristics, and how do we manage this? Big question.

just some thought.

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This thread sure is

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Vankuen wrote:

I think one of the reasons the “fighting” wing chun is erroding is because no one fights anymore.

**Let’s be even sharper – the reason for the bickering is that very few are practicing WCK anymore. “Practicing WCK” or “doing WCK” is fighting; if you’re not fighting, I don’t know what you are doing but it is not WCK. WCK has for the most part moved away from being a martial art, a fighting method, into a theoretical miasma comprised almost entirely of forms and drills (which “skill” being defined as “good at chi sao”). WCK is no longer performance-based (with that performance being fighting), and so anyone regardless of their ability to perform can put themselves out as an authority.

if we all stopped the BS then we would make wing chun stronger as a whole

**The only way to do that is by vigilantly focusing on increased performance. Anyone teaching – or holding themselves out as an authority – should be ready and willing to step out onto the floor and show what skill they have (and not with chi sao). If they won’t, then we should realize that it’s because they haven’t any real skill. This is nothing radical – they do it in BJJ, wrestling, boxing, MMA, any genuine martial art.

66

What a joke…

The VTM has invested countless hours traveling aroung the world researching and documenting the histroy of WC and it’s various strands of the art. No one person or any other organization come close to the amount of effort put out by them.

All hendrik has is some theories, some pictures that have no more in common with WC than any other picture s of Chinese MA, and most notably a lot of talk and no walk.

But besides all that… the VTM IS NOT HFY. I’m not part of the VTM.

I think we all got the ugly part of WC staight now.

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Okay…I was going to wait to ask this but…what’s HFY stand for!!!

And thanks for elaborating Terence…I didn’t have time to write all that. Maybe that’s why I liked the EBMAS school here…because the guy running the show walks the walk instead of just talking.

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HFY stands for Hung Fa Yi…Van. Another style of Wing Chun.

But this thread is not about HFY.
It’s not about the VTM.
It’s not about Hendrik’s theories.
It’s not about Robert Chu.
It’s not about William Cheung.
Or Emin Boztepe.

WHEN ARE ALL OF YOU GOING TO REALIZE THAT ?

At the end of the day - the bad and the ugly need to be discarded…

…and THE GOOD needs to be focused upon and made better.

What is The Good?

Let’s start having some tournaments and get-togethers and find out! Put the cards on the table. Let it all hang out. Shake hands before - and shake hands after. Then we’ll know what we’ve got!

But what we have here now is a bunch of warring family clans in some old-world medieval country…which weakens the country due to inter-regional, ethnic, religious, racial, economic, political, and familial fighting and strife - and therefore the country as a whole is open to foreign invasion. Which is still the case for many countries today, in fact.

Well on a much smaller scale that’s exactly what’s happening in the Wing Chun world today - and the foreign countries are BJJ, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Wrestling, Boxing, etc.

They’ve invaded the turf and kicked us out.

They are now the Rulers of the Country.

DO YOU GUYS LIKE THAT?

Some of you couldn’t care less…I know. But I’m not talking to those people. I’m talking to the rest of you.

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Well I think Leung Ting has put in more time and money doing his own research and has published more books than the VTM has. So what? He has his own biases as well (see his own book "Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun).

All any of THEM have is theories, drawings and some pictures.

While it is nice to honor the past and preserve it…

That does nothing for furthering the current state of Wing Chun fighting skill today–which is Victor’s, Ernie’s, Terrence’s and my point.

Believing in Ng Mui, Tan Sao Ng, White Crane, Shaolin or the Easter Bunny isn’t goingg to translate into fighting ability.

Tracing lineage back 30, 100, 300 or 3000 years isn’t going to accord anyone with mystical fighting powers…

Training and fighting will.

About the only fighting skill Wing Chun is renowned for today is what we are engaging in now–VERBAL infighting.

The age of “marketing” based on dead people and ANCIENT HISTORY should be long over for TCMA. Do we still live in a society based on ancestor worship?

The age of “marketing” based on teaching people to actually fight and win effectively should be more than all you need. Are you teaching an art that with consistent training will yeild a higher percentage of me being an effective fighter?

Based on what PROOF? How can it be VERIFIED?

MMA guys would rightly look at this kind of thread and just laugh at the wannabees. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by duende
[B]What a joke…

The VTM has invested countless hours traveling aroung the world researching and documenting the histroy of WC and it’s various strands of the art. No one person or any other organization come close to the amount of effort put out by them.

All hendrik has is some theories, some pictures that have no more in common with WC than any other picture s of Chinese MA, and most notably a lot of talk and no walk.

But besides all that… the VTM IS NOT HFY. I’m not part of the VTM.

I think we all got the ugly part of WC staight now. [/B]

70

Then let’s start being more constructive with this…

How about we create an annual or bi annual KFO wing chun get together were we can meet and practice regardless of lineage, as all of our drills are relatively the same, and of course we can have sparring or whatever as well, as long as ego’s are left at home and things can be kept civil.

Also it needs to be held somewhere to accomodate it, maybe sifu on the forum can arrange for the guys to stay at the school with some sleeping bags for something for the weekend, since we’re there to train anyway right? Just an idea…what do you all think?

71

Good thoughts, David.

And Van…I like your suggestions. I couldn’t accomodate people sleeping in the space I use - but people are welcome to come here…and I’m open to going to other places a few times a year as well.

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Well not necessarily you…but anyone on here that would entertain the idea of pursuing it. No lineage, no BS arguments, no organization fees or monetary gain, everyone foots the their own bill for getting there and getting their own meals, if one of the sifu’s on here wants to possibly put up their school space for something like this, it can be just guys (and gals?!) getting together to further their knowledge of wing chun, think of it as a KFO wing chun “seminar”.

73

Believing in Ng Mui, Tan Sao Ng, White Crane, Shaolin or the Easter Bunny isn’t goingg to translate into fighting ability.

It depends!..The easter bunny could very well teach us about some footwork!..:wink:

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Easter is not too far away…about 5 months?

Might be a good time for a Wing Chun get-together.

“Forever Springtime”

75

How far is brooklyn from the bronx? I have a military buddy that lives in the bronx suburbs (he’s an AF recruiter) and I may end up going to visit him sometime next year…maybe I can make it a wing chun trip as well and visit some of the schools up there for a little learning.

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Van:

By car…my school is only about maybe 25-35 minutes from the Bronx - depending upon what part of the Bronx your friend lives.

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Planet WC…

I don’t think it’s wise for you to mention what would make a MMA laugh…

just leave it at that.

78

PlanetWC’s comments are absolutely spot on.

79

Terence,
So in between your mma rounds you have a tupperware party? You sure they aren’t laughing at you and not with you.
Speaking of books when Robert Chu said Wing Chun isn’t about making money is he refering to when he sold the rights to “Complete Wing Chun” for a measly $2,000. :wink:

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“I don’t think it’s wise for you to mention what would make a MMA laugh…just leave it at that.” (duende)

“Terence…So in between your mma rounds you have a tupperware party? You sure they aren’t laughing at you and not with you. Speaking of books when Robert Chu said Wing Chun isn’t about making money is he refering to when he sold the rights to ‘Complete Wing Chun’ for a measly $2,000.” (canglong - Tony Jacobs)

You two guys are just trollin’ your a$$es off.

Why not just show up when these proposed get-togethers occur…and do some hard sparring.

THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT BOOKS AND TUPPERWARE - if you’re still interested in that sort of thing.

Sound like a plan?