Wing Chun sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=kungfublow;960059]Why is that? What then is the point of training all the techniques and the forms? Woking on getting your tan in the right place or your bong perfect. If all these things will not be used in the real fight. What then are the things you should see from Wing chun in a real fight?[/QUOTE]
Watch people who are skilled at real fighting doing real fighting. They will be using the techniques that work.

99.999% of techniques that work for real against resisting opponents are being used by those that regularly fight. These are the things you will see.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;960062]Watch people who are skilled at real fighting doing real fighting. They will be using the techniques that work.

99.999% of techniques that work for real against resisting opponents are being used by those that regularly fight. These are the things you will see.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the “typical kickboxing” way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the “unique look” of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask “why bother” and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;960066]While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the “typical kickboxing” way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the “unique look” of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask “why bother” and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Train WCK with emphasis on application, and you see it looks like the WCK you use.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;960066]While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the “typical kickboxing” way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the “unique look” of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask “why bother” and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.[/QUOTE]

***VERY carefully worded and well-thought-out post here from sanjuro.

The uniqueness of wing chun MAY be visible, he tells us…and then follows by answering the question “why bother”? - (AFTER TELLING US THAT “WHY BOTHER”? IS INDEED A VALID QUESTION)…

(the implication being that he’s not sure that it will be worth the effort since the end result could still be that “purely visible” wing chun may not be that efficient)…

but yet concludes by answering the question with this: IF you can make your very visible wing chun work, then you’ve really got something special because the very uniqueness of the style can give you a tactical advantage since very few people have seen it up close and personal…

(Remember when Vitor Belfort destroyed a great fighter like Wanderlai Silva in about 5 seconds with a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack? Remember BJJ when it first burst upon the scene in 1993 at the first UFC and in the immediate years thereafter? When virtually no one had a clue as to what Royce Gracie was doing or how to defend against it?)…

But I’m going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun’s uniqueness basically begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.

Btw, go back and watch the Belfort/Silva fight and you’ll see that Vitor first rocked Wanderlai with a typical boxing-like rear cross…and then…he finished him off with a chain punch attack with multiple strikes.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;960079]***VERY carefully worded and well-thought-out post here from sanjuro.
The uniqueness of wing chun MAY be visible, he tells us…and then follows by answering the question “why bother”? - (AFTER TELLING US THAT “WHY BOTHER”? IS A VALID QUESTION)…

(the implication being that he’s not sure that it will be worth the effort since the end result could still be that “purely visible” wing chun may not be that efficient)…

but yet concludes by answering the question with this: IF you can make your very visible wing chun work, then you’ve really got something special because the very uniqueness of the style can give you a tactical advantage since very few people have seen it up close and personal…

(Remember when Vitor Belfort destroyed a great fighter like Wanderlai Silva in about 5 seconds with a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack? Remember BJJ when it first burst upon the scene in 1993 at the first UFC and in the immediate years thereafter? When virtually no one had a clue as to what Royce Gracie was doing or how to defend against it?)…

But I’m going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun’s uniqueness begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.[/QUOTE]

LOL !
Yes, it was carefully worded, thanks for picking up on that Victor !
Look at Machida, his unique system is what is giving him an edge right now over his opponents.
I recall the first time I sparred a Ba gau guy, the controlled sparring went in his favour, he was very hard to hit, but then he decided to try FC and there, his lack of expereicned showed and I took him out in less than 3 minutes, that said, IF I had NOT done a few ronds with him BEFORE, I probably would have had a heck of a time getting to him, he was just to different than what I had been/was exposed to.

BTW, I agree with where WC should be used ie: In a phone booth.

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Couldn’t agree more! (Well, forget the phonebooth ;))

…but yeah, when in close, and especially in a “street” atmosphere where there may not be much room to maneuver, wing chun can be very effective. That’s the ultimate strengh (and uniqueness) that wing chun brings to the table.

And it’s strength is also it’s ironic weakness: because even in the “street” (and especially in a “match”)…there’s no guarantee that the fight will start from very close - hence the need for modifications/adaptations from any range longer than about 30 inches or so, imo.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;960079]But I’m going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun’s uniqueness basically begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.
[/QUOTE]

Since I obviously have dissagreed with you on this point, I would be curious to know if everyone from TWC feels this same way or has come to this same conclusion? Phil?

One of the reasons I ask is, by watching GM WC’s clips working out with the boxer, it didn’t look like boxing/kickboxing to me.

Jonathan

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I would be curious to know if everyone from TWC feels this same way or has come to this same conclusion?

I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ “street fights” many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro’s points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace’s. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It’s not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it’s that the additions turbocharge it.

If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you. The TWC system is meant to be a launching pad, not a straitjacket.

One of the reasons I ask is, by watching GM WC’s clips working out with the boxer, it didn’t look like boxing/kickboxing to me.

While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase “working out” (as opposed to “fighting”) is of pivotal importance.

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My God, Andrew…every word of that post was spot on. I applaud you! :cool: :wink:

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[QUOTE=anerlich;960109]I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ “street fights” many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro’s points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace’s. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It’s not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it’s that the additions turbocharge it.

If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you. The TWC system is meant to be a launching pad, not a straitjacket.

While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase “working out” (as opposed to “fighting”) is of pivotal importance.[/QUOTE]

Well said !

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The way you have been trained will come out under pressure…old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look…most people today don’t train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO

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[QUOTE=Paul T England;960214]The way you have been trained will come out under pressure…old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look…most people today don’t train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO[/QUOTE]

How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;960215]How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?[/QUOTE]

Darn you and your use of logic! BTW, I thought Wing Chun was supposed to be easy to learn. :confused:

Fighting looks like fighting. UltimateWingChun, I disagree with your styles comment. Grappling looks like grappling no matter what the style, what makes them different is the rules they compete under. For example gi or no gi, subs or no subs. A hip throw looks the same in BJJ, Sambo, catch wrestling, free style wrestling, Greco wrestling or Judo. The only difference would be the wearing or not of a gi jacket. In other words, what handles are available to do the throw and in the case of Greco no legs used in the throw.

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[QUOTE=Paul T England;960214]The way you have been trained will come out under pressure…old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look…most people today don’t train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO[/QUOTE]

I could smoke your average karate black belt in a full-contact sparring match in about 6 months because of the high pressure training that I went through. However, that type of match uses a strict set of techniques.

To fight in the street, you need knife defense, gun defense, empty hand defense against a stick or pole, takedown defense, basic grappling escapes, and escapes from basic holds (bear hugs, head locks, grabs, and so on). It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to develop those well enough to have an answer for anything.

This assumes about 2-3 hours of instruction per week and at least 3 hours of individual practice per week although I think that I probably did more on both counts.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;960109]I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ “street fights” many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply.
I’d agree that a lot of stuff ‘works’ at a long range. Same can be said for any range for that matter. My understanding of WCK is knowing what works most effectively and efficiently at the given range, facing, etc one is at (from a tools perspective).
Now, are you saying TWC does not have the necessary tools/concepts to operate from longer or pre-contact range and bridge into close range on its own? Why would they need these other things?
And, I’m not saying TWC can’t do it, I’ve seen vids by both GM WC and Phil that make me think it does (And none of it looked like kickboxing to me as Vic advocates). I’m curious about why this issue with having to go to other sources to operate at long range? Or are talking personal preference or that they prefer to stay and fight out at that range and might need to incorporate other things because they are not intending to close the gap once the fight starts?

[QUOTE=anerlich;960109]David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro’s points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace’s. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It’s not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it’s that the additions turbocharge it.

If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you [/QUOTE]

IMO, WCK isn’t a style. Sure, it has signature ‘tools’ that are somewhat unique looking to WCK, but thinking of WCK as a style is rather limiting. fwiw, I found it was WCK that turbocharged my overall fighting abilities, not the other way around - regardless what style I’ve done in the past. What turbo charged it? The concepts and principals, including the ideas of & efficiency & economy of motion.

Now, I agree, you should work out with as many different people from as many different fighting backgrounds as possible. And I see nothing wrong with using different things to get the job done as long as they are guided by principal. But I don’t think you have to mix in what they are doing if what you are doing already works. It has nothing to do with pride, stylistic purity or agenda. It has to do with common sense.

WCK is about occupying your space with the strongest structure & maintaining your own CL and gravity while dominating your opponents gravity and taking away their structures. Its about controlling their COM once the attack has been neutralized and then destroying whats left of it. A WCK fighter shouldnt look like a kickboxer when fighting at what some call long range because some of what kickboxers go as stylists goes against WCK body structure methods and COG principals. Can I mix in their kicks and punches? I guess. But until I have dominated my opponents COG and structures and put my self into an advantageous position, they go against WCK principals. And once I have done that, do I really need long range kicks and punches?

[QUOTE=anerlich;960109]While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase “working out” (as opposed to “fighting”) is of pivotal importance.[/QUOTE]

Why would anyone workout, spar or train differently than they would intend to fight? This sounds counterproductive.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;960215]How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?[/QUOTE]

Maybe it just has more depth so it takes longer to grasp. If I can learn how to fight with another system in a matter of months maybe that’s good. If your only goal is to be able to fight. Most likely you are going to use a couple of techniques that are easy to grasp and work consistantly with little effort or training. But now you are a good fighter that would be a one trick pony. If your goal is to get into something deeper and fighting is not the end all and be all of this then wouldn’t a deeper system take much more time to learn and master and then apply. For me the longer the time taken to master the greater the reward. I could go out a learn how to throw a guy in a couple of weeks and it might work in every fight I ever have but really who cares I’m a one trick pony and that’s all I can do. Sure it’s effective but anything that comes so easy has no real pay off.

To me if it does take much longer to make Wing chun work I see that as a greater challenge with a greater reward. If the system is deeper then it should take longer to learn and master and then apply in a real fight situation.

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[QUOTE=kungfublow;960317]Maybe it just has more depth so it takes longer to grasp. If I can learn how to fight with another system in a matter of months maybe that’s good. If your only goal is to be able to fight. Most likely you are going to use a couple of techniques that are easy to grasp and work consistantly with little effort or training. But now you are a good fighter that would be a one trick pony. If your goal is to get into something deeper and fighting is not the end all and be all of this then wouldn’t a deeper system take much more time to learn and master and then apply. For me the longer the time taken to master the greater the reward. I could go out a learn how to throw a guy in a couple of weeks and it might work in every fight I ever have but really who cares I’m a one trick pony and that’s all I can do. Sure it’s effective but anything that comes so easy has no real pay off.

To me if it does take much longer to make Wing chun work I see that as a greater challenge with a greater reward. If the system is deeper then it should take longer to learn and master and then apply in a real fight situation.[/QUOTE]

Well, you certainly are entitled to your view.
I disagree, but to each their own.
If a MA, any MA, can’t be used by its practioners to protect themselves as quickly as possible then it is quite obviously, inferior to other MA that can do this.

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more than likely though your not going to be able to apply any martial art quickly its gonna take a while before you can actually use it to defend yourself

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[QUOTE=goju;960325]more than likely though your not going to be able to apply any martial art quickly its gonna take a while before you can actually use it to defend yourself[/QUOTE]

Why?
Most guys that do MT or Boxing or even MMA, can “fight” within months, judo guys can throw people in months, BJJ guys can take down and choke most people after a few months.

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Wing Chun is beautiful when doing drills and forms. Fighting is ugly, never has there been or ever will be a graceful fight.
You worry a lot if tan sao is perfect while practicing the form, not worry so much when tan is blocking a punch coming toward your head.
All that matters is did it work.

Winning is beautiful, losing is ugly.