I tried to tell you all in similar thread"The most well rounded art."
[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 07-13-2000).]
Dragonzrage:
1)I never said there was a Wing Chun Ground form.
2)Our wing chun does in fact have a comprehensive system of ground fighting/grappeling. Do we do nearly as much submission work as BJJ? No, be we do way more striking, and about as much positioning. One of the things I’ve noticed from working out with BJJ folks, they tend to “position, then submit”, we tend to “position, then strike”. And yes, that inclueds counters to the mount, the guard, blah blah blah, all that type of stuff. Hey, if you don’t belive it, come on down to our school, I’ve never been coy about where we’re at. I honestly can’t think of a better way of showing you. Other wise, it’s just a matter of me saying “Yes we do” and you saying “No you don’t”. Heh, I’ll trust my own opinion on what I know… 
Jo_jitsu, I’ll email you.
Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Sandman,
To quote my own post,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DragonzRage:
The smart traditionalist is the guy who familiarizes himself with a ground situation learning escapes and counters and perhaps applying some of his own technique to the positioning and structure of groundfighting (wing chun has many striking methods that can adapted very well to a good base in submission grappling). This is the real deal when someone says their wing chun teaches grappling.
[/quote]
So isn’t that what your club is doing? Sounds great to me. I never said ALL wing chun school that teach grappling claim a secret form.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jojitsu27:
In light of the post on modified vs traditional wing chun, I was wondering if I was the only Wing Chun man who has modified his personal wing chun?
I have added some boxing strikes that I think fit in well with Wing Chun, some Southern Mantis footwork, and of course Brazilian Jujitsu!
Thus I have developed my own personal “modified” wing chun.
Have any of you done likewise?
What other styles or techniques have you added to your Wing Chun that you think complement the style?
-jojitsu27[/quote]
Wich boxing strikes would fit in with WC?
WT
After reviewing the tape of the William Cheung/Emin Boztepe fight (yes that same old playground style fight that keeps coming up in topics here) I must conclude that there are no hidden groundfighting forms in wing chun
Sorry couldn’t help it
Dragonrage,
You should be ashamed of yourself 
Of course they are there they are just hidden so you can’t see them ROFLOL (See here is a “hidden” technique I am “rolling on the floor laughing out loud” while doing Wing Chun a fine example of hidden groundfighting)
I used to compete in Judo and I hated groundwork so much I would throw my opponenet and then step back to let him get up so I could throw him again. Unfortunately the Judges did not like that and sometimes I was required to do groundwork. Still, I think there are principles which can be translated into ground fighting. Then again, I prefer to run and am thinkng of creating/modifying my Wing Chun to more of an Reebock system. Reminds me of a story I once heard of a monk that learned to run very fast and would outrun all of his attackers. Then when they were too tired to fight he would finsih them off. I think I may be on to something here. Will keep you informed LOL
Peace,
Dave
All western boxing strikes fit in with Wing Chun as they all comply to the 108 principles of Wing Chun so long as you don’t turn your hand past a 45 degree angle as boxers do to get maximum power transferal through the glove. Wing Chun has groundfighting, although the goundfighting we have in our school is not that extensive and we have been practising Ju Jutsu there as well. For all traditionalists which I consider myself to be, Wing Chun was never meant to be hard and fast with its techniques. If this was the case neither of the weapons would have been included and Sil Lum Tao would probably look different. I’ve been to three different schools of Wing Chun and all of them had slight variations on the movements. eg one schools tan sao was at a 10 degree angle and they had no kicks at all.
And they claim to be the “real” Wing Chun.
Wing Chun was never meant die by having hard and fast techniques but is meant to be held together by 108 principles and also concepts and strategies. In fact wasn’t Wing Chun a mixed martial art to start with. Were the techniques not taken from other martial arts?
Perhaps this post can bridge(pun) the gap a little between traditionalists and realists.
“take the pebble from my hand”
108 principles?
Could you list them for me,please.
WT
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WT:
108 principles?
Could you list them for me,please.
WT[/quote]
I can’t list them, but Yip Man had them carved into small stones. The stones are currently in the Wing Chun museum in Ohio.
Ok,the Kuen Kuit,now I get it.
WT
To make a Wing Chun punch more effective, put a .357 snubby in your hand.
Learn the Kung Fu as completely as you can and the hands will be there for you. Good, effective Kung Fu is adaptable to most any modern “street” encounter. Centuries old systems of Chinese Boxing Have encoutered Mongolian and Russian wrestling, Western boxing, Japanese judo,jiujitsu, and karate. Of course there is always room for improvement but it should be done from within. Observe other systems and counter from your own style which you should be masterful in. You don’t have to wait twenty years for an answer just be smart and work hard at what you know.
Sorry guys, I don’t even know them yet and when I do I don’t think I’ll be posting it on the internet.
WT,
Let me clear that up alittle. I didn’t really mean actuall boxing strikes, I meant boxing principles…I was just in a hurry and should’ve been more specific.
There are alot of little things boxing teaches that Wing Chun ignores because of it’s strict and unwavering principles.
One such thing that I think all Wing Chun fighters would benefit from boxing is the bob and weave type defensive maneuvers.
This is something that added to your arsenal of wing chun parries will only decrease the likeliness of you getting hit in a fight.
Also boxing bobs and weaves put you in postitions for some really nice boxing strikes that seem uneffective to a wing chun fighter…things like the uppercut or hook punch. Both of these work quite nicely off of a bob and weave and with the wing chun pak sau added even work better.
I wish we all had live sattelite feed so I could show you actual moves online and shit…oh well maybe someday when things are more high tech this will be commonplace.
-jojitsu27
Jojitsu27, Who said that Wing Chun Fut Sao in my case doesn’t have movements that resemble bobbing and weaving. The difference is the back alinement, hollowing chest, circular,up&down and side to side movements. Most angular, circular, straight line punches, open hand, fingers, palm, knuckles,and claws are taught. Search deeper my friend and it is there.
By the way the movements are done differently than boxings bob&weave because unlike boxing sport rules we worry about kicks, knees, and grappling therefore our movements have to be much more guarded and precise.
i think there is ground fighting in wc its just that the techniques that work standing up, because we use defection and not brute force, work even better on the ground with the opponent on top, and no offence to any students but i dont think wc should be proved good or bad on the merit( if any) of william cheung and emin boztepe. just my views
see ya
THE MORE YOU SWEAT IN PEACE
THE LESS YOU BLEED IN WAR
Sam,
What is your family style of Wing Chun? Because if it has bobbing/weaving in it like you claim I would like to see it?
I have been studying Wing Chun for 10 years and have never seen a style of Wing Chun yet that teaches evasion of strikes by upper body movement.
Benny,
You have made the fatal Wing Chun mistake.
You said, “techniques that work standing up, because we use defection and not brute force, work even better on the ground with the opponent on top”.
You actually couldn’t be any more wrong in this assumption.
Wing Chun techniques work very, very badly on the ground, because of the body positioning of you and your opponent.
Lets take for instance the situation where you have slipped on ice, or grease and your opponent is in the classical groundfighting position of the “mount”, he is sitting astride your chest at a 90 degree angle to your horizontal body. He is striking down to your face. Because of this positioning he has range on your face, but your fists cannot reach his face. If you are really, really good a chi sau, you could theoretically chi sau for defense until he is tired of punching at your face, and I hope you realize how stupid that thought is.
You can strike at his upperbody, but you have only your chon choi, with no footwork or hip or shoulder power to back it up.
And being as Wing Chun has no postitioning reversals, techniques that teach how to get out from under the mount, you are basically screwed.
It takes specialized technique to get out of that special situation which is actually quite common in streetfighting situations and groundfighting.
And those are the things that Wing Chun is lacking. I could go on and on over hundreds of situations and positions that Wing Chun does not have the answer to.
It boils down to this…you Wing Chun brethren can keep your cups “full” with Wing Chun or you can continue in the martial arts with room in your proverbial “cup” to learn something from an outside source. You can remain stagnant and unchanging in your thinking and believe the Sifu who tells you Wing Chun has everything you need (of course crosstraining in a grappling style would effect his pocketbook!), or you can learn from the already proven battleground of Nhb where many long time Wing Chun fighters have been reduced to nothing by a grappler in a matter of minutes and often seconds. The choice is yours so I’m not going to harp on this any longer.
Truse me, someone who has studied Wing Chun a long time and has found no legitimate Wing Chun groundfighting. Crosstrain and save yourself the potentially life threatening situation of being beaten on the ground.
And remember I say all this not as an antagonist, but as a Wing Chun brother who really would like to see Wing Chun grow and incorporate more groundfighting techniques into the system.
-jojitsu27
benny,
I agree that you can’t judge a style completely merely based on the performance of two individuals. After all, it is the practitioner and not the style. But I think that you can definitely evaluate certain aspects of a style by watching two of the style’s best in actual combat. If you watch Roy Jones in action, you will definitely learn something about boxing. If you watch a Gracie fight, you will definitely learn certain things about Bjj. Now if you take Emin Boztepe (one of the reknowned Sifu Leung Ting’s top students and top fighter of the Wing Tsun Organization) and take William Cheung (orginal disciple of Yip Man and considered by many to be one of, if not the, best Wing Chun man alive) and put them up against each other, you should definitely be able to evaluate certain aspects of wing chun. These aren’t just casual practitioners or poor McDojo sifus, they are top authorities and experts in the art of Wing Chun. You can definitely judge from their performance the well roundedness and effectiveness of some wing chun strategies. Looking at how poorly they did, can anyone really say that wing chun techniques are very well rounded? If the top Wing Chun authorities in the world can’t do jacksh!t on the ground then I’d say its pretty safe to assume that wing chun style is ill suited to deal with that kind of situation.
~Max
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jojitsu27:
Sam,
And being as Wing Chun has no postitioning reversals, techniques that teach how to get out from under the mount, you are basically screwed.
It takes specialized technique to get out of that special situation which is actually quite common in streetfighting situations and groundfighting.
And those are the things that Wing Chun is lacking. I could go on and on over hundreds of situations and positions that Wing Chun does not have the answer to.
-jojitsu27[/quote]
Man, you just gotta come down to our kwoon…
Sandman[Wing Chun]