In light of the post on modified vs traditional wing chun, I was wondering if I was the only Wing Chun man who has modified his personal wing chun?
I have added some boxing strikes that I think fit in well with Wing Chun, some Southern Mantis footwork, and of course Brazilian Jujitsu!
Thus I have developed my own personal “modified” wing chun.
Have any of you done likewise?
What other styles or techniques have you added to your Wing Chun that you think complement the style?
-jojitsu27
Well, I’ve added judo strictly for the groundfighting, and other than that, I don’t think I’m good enough at wing chun yet to know if anything needs modifying more than me.
Peace.
Reverend Tim
I thought Western Boxing strikes were part and parcel of quality Wing Chun.
“take the pebble from my hand”
Well here we go again. This is the problem I have with “modern” Wing Chun pactitioners. You look everywhere else but within your art or claim your art is incomplete. Wing Chun core concepts has everything you need to deal with grappling or striking arts. I speak from some experience. My original kwoon was in a professional boxing gym where champion boxers trained. We also came across many wrestlers, judo/jujitsu players, and Aikidoists. Our art not only stood it’s ground but many of them became students. My instuctor always says to observe other arts and consider counter measures from within your own. You cannot take bits from other arts and expect to master them and incorperate them in your own. The only thing that happens is that you weaken all your techniques. Master your art and it wont fail you. It will only takes a lifetime.
Boxing strikes. The conditioning and kicks of Muay Thai. And a little, teeny tiny bit of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (For unknown reasons, I’m not doing BJJ anymore)
Sam’s generalization of ‘modified’ Wing Chun does not apply to me, though. I started Wing Chun after I started the other ones.
Any coward can fight a battle when he’s sure of winning.
-George Elliot
Free-Style Wrestling for ground-f ighting.
Sam,
Glad your gym did you so well, but personally, I saw a defect in my own abilities, and am seeking to rectify it. I certainly thing wing chun is a great art. I love it and my sifu’s teaching tremendously. I also suck at wrestling, so if I just so happen to slip and fall, I’m screwed, so I went out to address that.
No big deal, and certainly no reason to get quite so condescending.
Peace.
Reverend Tim
My intent was not to be condesending just frustrated. Wing Chun is precious to me. It’s knowledge is like an ever flowing well which I can drink from. The more knowledge I can grasp the more I realize how much there is to learn. Don’t sell it short or surmise that if you don’t see the answer in front of your nose that it’s not there. I do believe in seeking out knowledge but first fully master whats already on your plate.
Sam,
Well, how’s about I use what I’m learning in judo until I master what’s on my plate? I’m all for personal development and exploring something fully, and if as I go, I find out that my wing chun’s already got it covered, great…but if someone tackles me in a bar, I don’t want to have to go, “Okay, you jammed my arm up my ass this time, but come back in 5 years when I’ve figured out how to apply wing chun principles on the ground and then I’ll put a hurt on you!”
I’m quite sure that wing chun has everything I’ll ever need…but in the meantime, our kwoon has a concrete floor and I’ve never once seen anyone go to the ground, so even if the principles are there, the drilling isn’t, so if nothing else, the judo class is a place I can roll around on the floor without serious abrasions, and there’s no reason why I can’t try to apply my wing chun while I’m there, too.
It’s not like wing chun’s my fiance and I’m cheating on it by taking judo. Wing chun’s plenty resilient enough to let me try something out…if it’s okay with my sifu, which it is, then I have no compunction about cross-training a little. I just want to be a better wrestler, and getting too philosophical about it really gives it more import than it deserves. Think of my time rolling around as “remedial” grappling, 'cuz I’m that bad at it.
That’s all. 
Peace.
Reverend Tim
[This message has been edited by ReverendTim (edited 07-10-2000).]
Wing Chun may not be your fiancee’, but you will never get in her pants by flaunting your varied interests 'cuz if you have a wandering eye SHE KNOWS MAN, SHE KNOWS… 
LOL, MoQ,
Wing chun knows I’m just having coffee and flirting harmlessly with judo…
Peace.
Reverend Tim
I haven’t really made modifications to my Wing Chun.
All I’ve done is made some of the transition movements more circular - I don’t really do a “linear” Wing Chun.
I don’t think I’ve made any formal changes to WC… just my own personal style.. but from the other thread, I’m beginning to think my own interpretations are probably modifications? Ah well…whatever works
oh I did take Akido for a little while… and all it did was make me miss the simplicity and practicality of WC…
[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 07-11-2000).]
Sam,
You said >Wing Chun core concepts has everything you need to deal with grappling or striking arts.
From my personal experience I have found the opposite to be true. There is a myth that Wing Chun has everything you need to deal with grappling and it is a lie. It is what keeps Wing Chun a topic of jokes among real fighters, todays NHB elite, who have seen Wing Chun fighters enter the Nhb realm, and get stepped on like toads because they knew no groundfighting.
Wing Chun has NO groundfighting positioning, technique, reversals, submissions, nothing whatsoever.
I personally put out a challenge to any Wing Chun man who refutes this. I will either travel to your school and see your style myself, and if you will not allow that I will take you on in Nhb rules competition so you can show me what groundfighting Wing Chun has inherit in it. I will only use Wing Chun stand-up and brazilian jujitsu groundwork.
This is not a macho thing, but to prove a point. Wing Chun was created to have no ground technique or ability whatsoever and thus is “incomplete” as an art. I love Wing Chun standup and will continue to study it for the rest of my life as I have done the past 10 years, but I refuse to fall prey to the traditionalist mindset that my art has everything. I have traveled extensively…seen Wing Chun in Hong Kong, Singapore, Sri Lanka, England, and here in the U.S. (my job sent me around alot), and I have yet to see a style of Wing Chun that has groundfighting.
And I have seen what happens to a Wing Chun student who thinks that he doesn’t need to know ground technique, and that his standup is all he needs.
Sam,
Where is your dojo, school, kwoon, whatever you call it. I want to see your “Wing Chun” groundfighting technique. Not as an antagonist trying to prove you wrong, but as a Wing Chun brother who wants to learn.
I am convinced from what I’ve seen that there is no Wing Chun groundfighting, but I have an empty cup and am willing to travel and see for myself.
And as a NHb fan I would love a full contact grappling match with anyone who can show me Wing Chun groundfighting.
your wing chun brother,
jojitsu27
jojitsu27,
We have a poster here from Texas that posts under Sandman or Sandman2, check out his web site. I haven’t seen him post much lately, but you should be able to find an old post of his on the Southern Kung Fu forum. Anyway, he has posted extensively about the topic of Wing Chun against grapplers, he trains against BJJers, and at his web site are videos for sale on the topic of Wing Chun against grapplers. I haven’t purchased the tapes yet so I can’t comment on them, but they may hold the answers you are looking for.
OOPS, it’s not on his website, it’s on his Sifu’s website. The address is: www.authentickungfu.com
[This message has been edited by Highlander (edited 07-12-2000).]
Joijitsu27:
Hi there! I’m the guy Highlander is refering to, and yes, we do groundfighting in our WC. That means: we train to foil grappling attacks, takedown attempts, we do mat work from disadvantaged positions (headlocks, guard, mount, etc…), reversals of these positions, reversals of those reversals…and all that sort of stuff. I also have trained on many occasions with some BJJ friends of mine (blue belts at the Carlos Machado school in Dallas). And I can tell you this, Wing Chun DOES have groundfighting, and it’s not BJJ. There are definate similarites in many of the basic positions, but what we do in these positions is pretty different, and it’s definatly Wing Chun. In our school, I’d say we spend about 20% of our time dealing with grappeling style attacks. Hell, the very first thing we teach when you start are basic counters to single and double arm grabs, front/rear chokes, bearhugs, etc…if fact, you learn 11 of these before you’ve even seen both Tan and gaun sau. To be honest with you, I can’t really imagine others out there aren’t learning this stuff, it seems both too important and too integral to being a well rounded fighter. Anyway, I’m kinda pressed for time at the moment, but if you want to, post your email address, and we can discuss this at length. Our school has a very open door policy about exchanging techniques with others, so I’m pretty sure some sort of visit could be arranged. Highlander posted the link to my kwoon, so check that out. BTW, just to let people know, the antigrappler tapes on our site just cover basic WC stratagies for dealing with grappling, and doesn’t show alot of mat work, as it focuses most of it’s time on standing counters to grappling techniques, the clinch, takedown attempts, throws, etc…but we do much more in class, and that’s where most of the “on the ground” groundwork takes place. Still, the tapes have some great basic strategies and techniques on them. Hehe, ok, I’ll stop pimping my sifu’s tapes now… 
Seriously though, if you are willing to travel and learn, he’s more than willing to teach. Post your email, and we’ll talk!
Thanks!
Sandman[Wing Chun]
Like Huang, I have been starting to do some
more circular stuff (I have a fascination
with Bagua), and it has been proving to be
quite useful. There aren’t any grappling
schools nearby, and even though I prefer
striking/standup fighting, there would definetly be some merit in learning some
ground fighting if there was someone to teach
me. I will admit that both my teacher, and his teacher are pretty close minded about
other styles, except for a couple internal ones. The thing is though they both have a lot of experience with other styles, they
both use to wrestle, my teacher’s teacher has
competed in full contact. My point being is they have been around, and after all the other styles they studied and have come into contact with, they have decided to mainly stick to Wing Chun. My main concern with Wing
Chun isn’t really whether it will work or not, but whether or not I will be able to use it properly. It gets discouraging when I do Chi Sao with this one other guy from class, because we always end up getting in a pushing match, we never really pull off any
of our techniques decisively against one another, and generally end up getting very
sloppy. My teacher makes the stuff look
so easy and has no problem getting it to work, but then we try and still screw it up
(this can get very frustrating), but since me
and that guy are at about the same skilllevel
I don’t think I should concern myself too much…We are gonna be starting full contact
sometime in the future, so hopefully I will really get the chance to try seriously try it
out. There is supposedly a place near Cleveland where all styles are welcome to come and fight, and I’m hoping to make it up
there sometime as it would be a great opporitunity.
I apologize in advance for any typos
Sandman2,
Please e-mail me and let ne know more about what you guys are doing!!
I am extrememly interested, I have been doing Wing Chun for 10 years and have never been able to find legitimate Wing Chun ground techniques…please contact me!
My address is jo_jitsu@hotmail.com
It sounds really cool what you guys are doing, I try and work out constantly against guys at my bjj school. But I can’t seem to find any Wing Chun that works on the ground from what I know.
Is there a secret Wing Chun ground form or something?
Also, what lineage are you guys?
Thanks,
jojitsu27
Secret Wing Chun groundfighting form? LOL!! That’s a bunch of hooey. The truth of the matter is that wing chun and other traditional systems like it do not have any sort of extensive groundfighting science. Of course there are always strategies and techniques within the system that can be applied to a ground situation, but let’s be honest. Traditional Gung fu does not have any sort of ground grappling that can even compare to the refined and developed methods of modern submission grappling styles. The smart traditionalist is the guy who familiarizes himself with a ground situation learning escapes and counters and perhaps applying some of his own technique to the positioning and structure of groundfighting (wing chun has many striking methods that can adapted very well to a good base in submission grappling). This is the real deal when someone says their wing chun teaches grappling. But all those numbskulls who talk about hidden movements in the forms and “secret” techniques are nothing but a bunch of scam artists.
~Max
I’m not sure how I feel about calling it “modifying” WC. It doesn’t sound like modification as much as it sounds like combining WC with aspects of another style. Personally I have a good deal of respect for the style, and I’ve found that it’s a great compliment to ANY system.
As for my approach to Wing Chun, (although I must confess I don’t fight a “pure” anything much anymore)I’ve found that the parry/counterstrike method is a great set up for chin na techniques, throws, etc.
Praying Mantis Forever!